tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post6885175751586998685..comments2024-03-20T12:34:55.100-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Bang Bang Crazy, Part 6Jim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-20471436996841612662013-02-27T22:19:26.048-06:002013-02-27T22:19:26.048-06:00Here we have Wrongful Termination: Chris Dorner’s ...Here we have <a href="https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/chris-dorner-wrongful-termination" rel="nofollow">Wrongful Termination: Chris Dorner’s Terrifyingly Banal Killing Spree</a> an assessment of Dorner's shootings as a workplace massacre. I think it's a very good piece, giving due both to the stresses Dorner was placed under, and to the his abject failure in responding to them.Raven Onthillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634556869209594389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-59063794264440034952013-02-24T13:25:02.319-06:002013-02-24T13:25:02.319-06:00Wow. I'm breathless after reading this post. T...Wow. I'm breathless after reading this post. Thank you for putting into words what many of us are feeling. Your assessment of Dorner was honest, blunt, and exactly what his horribly misguided apologists need to hear.Ahabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14675629709031865432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-89475309463766068832013-02-22T23:03:17.695-06:002013-02-22T23:03:17.695-06:00You know Jim, I love your site, I love your writin...You know Jim, I love your site, I love your writing. But I have got to take issue with a poor misunderstood villain in this post. <br /><br />You can't compare Christopher Dorner to Jayne Cobb. <br /><br />I think that the general public perception of Jayne as a mindless, selfish thug is shortsighted, and he is a victim of the vast conspiracy by Fox executives to destroy good television. <br /><br />Jayne actually WAS a hero. It's right there in the script. <br />"Thank you for the money you sent, it was helpful since Maddy is still sick with the damp lung"<br />"The next time little sister gets in a murderin' mood, maybe she'll go callin' on Inara, or Kaylee."<br /><br />And if he were truly so heartless, would he have been so crushed by the events of Jaynestown? Or cared what the crew thought at the end of Ariel? <br /><br />I really feel we got cheated with regards to Jayne. He wasn't that simple.catnip13https://www.blogger.com/profile/15334606625845081873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-45297477436126076042013-02-21T22:12:51.605-06:002013-02-21T22:12:51.605-06:00Actually I believe he's a case of malignant na...Actually I believe he's a case of malignant narcissism(sp?). Lucas Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-55463392527044144032013-02-21T22:11:57.071-06:002013-02-21T22:11:57.071-06:00Oh. Shit. Pre-Traumatic Stress Disorder?
Ann C.Oh. Shit. Pre-Traumatic Stress Disorder?<br /><br />Ann C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-79873630118982116872013-02-21T16:03:51.601-06:002013-02-21T16:03:51.601-06:00more
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/201...more<br /><br />http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/cleveland_police_chase_and_shooting_scene.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03878884323732649241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-80178353324677342232013-02-21T16:01:10.139-06:002013-02-21T16:01:10.139-06:00For another installment of Bang Bang Crazy
http:/...For another installment of Bang Bang Crazy<br /><br />http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/02/massive_police.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03878884323732649241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-69986273496853612252013-02-21T11:52:04.465-06:002013-02-21T11:52:04.465-06:00Jim --
With Jill, I think you overestimate the f...Jim -- <br /><br />With Jill, I think you overestimate the fairness of the US legal system, especially with respect to the challenging the behavior of the police. Also with Jill, I want to stress that even if the legal system is broken qua the actions of the police in the U.S., that does *not* justify murder. <br /><br />But it is important to note that, in large part because of the legal decisions surrounding the so-called 'war on drugs,' the criminal justice system in the U.S. has swung far from protecting the rights of the accused. Attempts to bring abusive police officers to justice, or to take legal actions against clearly racially motivated police actions, have been made much more difficult -- indeed, in many cases, the legal framework surrounding e.g. attempts to demonstrate racist patterns of police abuses and prosecutorial misconduct have rendered legal action effectively impossible. <br /><br />The last quarter of a century has seen an important and serious *erosion* of civil rights in the U.S., and a growth in the power of the police (and prosecutors) to engage in potentially (and often quite clearly) abusive activities with very little meaningful legal oversight. Again, this does *not* justify murder. It does not even "explain" murderous rampages. However, it is a real phenomenon, and it does mean that legal channels for dealing with the deeply embedded racism in our criminal justice system are not straightforward, nor likely to "succeed" in any obvious way.<br /><br />I take it as obvious that the correct response to the (what many perceive, and in my mind is clear) failure of our current legal framework to meaningfully protect the rights of the accused is political and legal actions, not violence! But we must recognize that, as a nation, we were perhaps never as committed to protecting the legal rights of *all* people to be free from police abuse as some might wish, and that whatever commitment we once had has been reduced in recent decades. <br /><br />(A brief plug for two decent books summarizing some of the research into the failures of our criminal justice system: Cole's _No Equal Justice_ and Alexander's _The New Jim Crow_. Neither is perfect, but they are both important books.)Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11364316598293820961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-35376323948119204412013-02-21T08:57:29.291-06:002013-02-21T08:57:29.291-06:00Dorner illustrates perfectly what results from an ...Dorner illustrates perfectly what results from an insular, paranoid hostility toward anyone you feel has wronged you. Hollywood (and others) has taught us that, if you are mistreated in a way that makes you really, really mad, you are justified in going completely, violently nuts and destroying all those who done you wrong. ("Don't make me angry; you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.") And now Chris Dorner has become the beau ideal of the survivalist conservative lunatics who think that President Obama has wronged them by being black and humane and who are now advocating some sort of revolution against the forces of oppression. These latter day Spartacuses need to move to, say, Iran, and learn what REAL oppression is like. The irony in all this, of course, is that the vast majority of these soi disant frontiersmen are white racists, and now their hero is a black man. What happened to the good old days when being a conservative was all about law and order?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-60750052721586552332013-02-20T14:43:44.686-06:002013-02-20T14:43:44.686-06:00How about we shed a tear because he was a fellow h...How about we shed a tear because he was a fellow human being. I absolutely agree with Mr. Wright's essay, but I also know that Dorner was alive and in some ways as much like any one of us as he was totally alien to us. We should shed a tear because he was someone's child and brother. He was someone's friend. He lived along side us, and while we will not really ever know what fatal flaws or tragic experiences led him to acts that we can NEVER condone, he was a living human being and now he is not. <br />BonnieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-30155616752609045072013-02-20T13:38:48.517-06:002013-02-20T13:38:48.517-06:00A hero? No. But, true or no, he BELIEVED himself...A hero? No. But, true or no, he BELIEVED himself wronged, and that makes him tragic. I admit, I feel badly for the guy--crazy caught up to him and had its way with him. My heart REALLY goes out to his victims. In all, a sad, stupid, "Negotiator" kind of disaster that leaves me sad.<br />Mumbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06018218539392699050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-2043925916920310832013-02-20T10:37:12.717-06:002013-02-20T10:37:12.717-06:00Dorner is definitely not a hero; but I feel rather...Dorner is definitely not a hero; but I feel rather sorry for both him AND his victims. He was a guy who went over the nutsy violent edge of thinking gunshots feel better than just being pissed off in silence. I do believe the reasons he felt that way need serious investigation; but he sure as hell isn't "the hero" of Canton" anymore than Jayne Cobb had intended heroism.<br /><br />I do think the cops got a bit nutsy as well, I mean hell....they shot at women who didn't remotely resemble Chris Dorner. Maybe what needs to be discussed isn't just the bang-bang bit at all? Maybe what needs a whole lot more discussion is the epidemic of NUTSY? (Not Anonymous...Syrbal from herlanderwalking.wordpress.com)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-25229810165281808112013-02-19T23:58:36.259-06:002013-02-19T23:58:36.259-06:00"Sure it is, because don’t we all just hate b..."Sure it is, because don’t we all just hate bank managers? And banks? And the whole damned fat cat Wall Street financial system that’s been ass raping the whole damned world for the last ten years?"<br /><br />When these assfuckers have gotten away with it, you can see why people are sympathizing with the vigilante. Why would you appoint a guy who was warned about not fucking up on his taxes to head up the TREASURY Dept which is in charge of COLLECTING TAXES? A DoJ that says we can't prosecute Banksters? They were my former clients? Martha Stewart goes to jail, but these mofo cronies don't? People start fantasizing about guillotines. Because we follow the rules, abide by the laws, still get fucked in the ass and some mofo has a bank account in a tax haven and gets to be the follow up Treasury Secretary appointment. And our complicit media just wants to talk about Lew's Loopy Signature.nswfmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-70500712318401052062013-02-19T23:21:59.123-06:002013-02-19T23:21:59.123-06:00Yeah...and Jim is bi-lingual...he speaks English a...Yeah...and Jim is bi-lingual...he speaks English and American....fluently...and clearly...Bufordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562503298407472200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-34567173117832956292013-02-19T23:07:03.443-06:002013-02-19T23:07:03.443-06:00So what was the point of attempting to promote suc...So what was the point of attempting to promote such an analogy?<br /><br />Especially when it's so obvious there is no comparison?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03878884323732649241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-20079996228533315222013-02-19T22:57:42.716-06:002013-02-19T22:57:42.716-06:00Yes, Lucas, I did read it, I went to your link an...Yes, Lucas, I did read it, I went to your link and read it, ....that's why I was able to describe so succinctly just how bad it was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-18085343463556990252013-02-19T21:57:47.461-06:002013-02-19T21:57:47.461-06:00I remember thinking that if Dorner wanted to air h...I remember thinking that if Dorner wanted to air his grievances, he should have started a blog like you've got here. And then networked the hell out of it to get people to investigate his claims. Killing innocent people to get at someone he knew at work is just plain wrong and reveals that he had a serious dark side that he obviously lost himself to. He ain't my hero. He went about it all the worst ways possible.<br />Aragon64https://www.blogger.com/profile/09168378865414859748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-16988071646242156412013-02-19T20:02:48.832-06:002013-02-19T20:02:48.832-06:00Well, the only thing that's certain is that no...Well, the only thing that's certain is that nothing is certain - but I understand what you're saying, Jill. <br /><br />Perhaps I should have phrased it, "If Dorner really had a case, he <i>likely</i> would have won eventually." See, what I really meant to imply here is this: if Dorner had a case worth killing for, worth declaring war on the police department for, literally worth his own <i>life</i>, and against the hated LAPD of all people, an organization that is widely believed to be racist and biased and unfair, well then it seems to me that if he had even the slightest bit of real evidence supporting his complaint the case would be a win sooner or later for any ACLU lawyer worth his sheepskin. <br /><br />Which makes me suspect that Dorner had no such leg to stand on. And that, given Dorner's rather obvious anger management issues and inability to move on, the LAPD was quite probably correct in getting rid of him. <br /><br />Note however, in the essay I freely surmise that the opposite may also be true, that Dorner's complaint might be entirely legit, that the LAPD has a history of racism and bias and so maybe Dorner's beef was completely justified - but how killing people "clears his name" as he says in his manifesto is utterly beyond me. Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-65281609764160075432013-02-19T19:39:41.947-06:002013-02-19T19:39:41.947-06:00On The Polemicist's pro-firearms argument to t...On The Polemicist's pro-firearms argument to the left: the left used to be pro-firearms ownership. Then we discovered firearms, and violent protest generally, were a tactical and strategic failure in our kind of activism. There are several reasons for this:<br /><br />1) Violence is unpopular. The left wants to raise and lead popular opposition to oppressors. Violence usually works against this. If protesters can be painted as violent, popular support falls in behind a state response, however brutal. The lightly-armed, or even unarmed, public protest is more effective at raising popular opposition than the heavily-armed pitched assault. <br /><br />2) The state and the 1% has a practical monopoly on force. It isn't the general public that can bring police power to bear, call out the National Guard, or even start wars. Historically, the American left has found that protests will be answered with overwhelming state force and non-violence is a much more effective answer to this than violence.<br /><br />3) Historically the global left has found that well-armed violent revolutions dissolve in internal violence. The consciously non-violent Indian independence movement of the 20th century has so far been more effective than the violent revolutions that 19th-century radicals advocated.<br /><br />So the case on the left for violence has become very weak.Raven Onthillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634556869209594389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-6660750439186360162013-02-19T19:08:24.108-06:002013-02-19T19:08:24.108-06:00I agree with most of what you said, except this:
...I agree with most of what you said, except this:<br /><br />"If Dorner really had a case, he would have won eventually. "<br /><br />Mainly because, just like the Gary Sinese scenario you outlined, stuff like that mostly happens on TV but not always in real life.<br /><br />However, I am NOT saying that he was a hero or justified in what he did, only that just as he should have known how the standoff would have played out, he probably also knew (or thought he knew) how going through legal channels would have played out.<br /><br />Again, I am not saying he was justified in his actions, he was not. Absolutely not. If he thought he couldn't win through proper legal channels, then he should have either tried anyway or found a way to come to peace with it. <br /><br />I'm just pointing out that having a righteous beef and using legal channels doesn't always result in a win, not even in the court of public opinion. Heck, a cop fighting a wrongful termination might not even get airtime. I think that the reason he is getting a positive response in the court of public opinion is because he did what a lot of people wish they could do (but, thankfully, wouldn't) and because he's dead. Jillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-35703106229291971692013-02-19T17:26:09.543-06:002013-02-19T17:26:09.543-06:00Love the Ankh-Moorpark reference Kado! Not everyo...Love the Ankh-Moorpark reference Kado! Not everyone will get it, but some of us appreciate that. <br />I do want to address the bit about comments. I definitely avoid comments sections of certain blogs because of the trolls. I cannot even imagine what they think they are accomplishing other than convincing the rest of us that they are troglodytes. <br />And, Jim, just found your blog. A little logic and less idealism is a breath of fresh air. Check out Barret Rainey at Ridenbaugh Press sometime. He's less colorful but a kindred spirit, I think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-35692401063568595382013-02-19T17:18:06.915-06:002013-02-19T17:18:06.915-06:00The person you linked lost my interest when he sta...The person you linked lost my interest when he started explaining to me what I *really* believe.drakvlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-12119417690040231612013-02-19T15:48:05.306-06:002013-02-19T15:48:05.306-06:00That was a good post, Sir. But in your responding ...That was a good post, Sir. But in your responding comment to Anonymous (why does he call us psycho fans? Some of us aren't fans per se, just devoted readers), you write: <i>If you'd prefer a comments section that allows diskish behavior</i>. That means streetwise in Ankh-Morpork, right? It must.Kadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14787043282382889225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-59853544607478982452013-02-19T15:15:42.097-06:002013-02-19T15:15:42.097-06:00Thank you for your always well written and thought...Thank you for your always well written and thoughtful prose.<br /><br />I can not comprehend how anyone could support Dorner or shed a tear for his death. This man was a murderer, terrorist, kidnapper etc. plan and simple. And when he realized that his path of destruction was over, he took the coward's way out with a bullet to his head.<br /><br />LAPD is not perfect - nor are most law enforcement agencies -- but we as citizens get what we pay for and with the anti-tax mentality in this country, we are lucky anyone is willing to put their lives on the line for us citizens with what we appear willing to pay.<br /><br />The killing of law enforcement officials has sky rocketed since 911. People angry at the government are taking it out on law enforcement officials who have nothing to do with the creation of laws or running of the country..<br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18117837896972479819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-72601342325646072842013-02-19T14:57:59.428-06:002013-02-19T14:57:59.428-06:00That blogger (The Polemicist) lost me when he clai...That blogger (The Polemicist) lost me when he claimed that Liberals are all pretending to support the right to have guns, but they all want to eliminate them. I am a Liberal, most of my friends are Liberals, I do a lot of reading and see hundreds of posts by Liberals, and they do NOT want guns banned, but they DO want more regulation.<br /><br />His statement: "What all liberal gun-control proposals seek to do, and all they seek to do, is to reduce and eventually eliminate the right of ordinary citizens to possess firearms." So he bases his argument on what MIGHT happen or what he is AFRAID will happen, not on evidence. Sorry. I don't spend my time on such people. He is a fear-mongerer with somewhat better literacy skills than some of the rabid pro-gun people who are afraid they need an arsenal for when 'the guv-mint' comes after them. You may like what he says, but he has several disconnects in his 'logic'. 'Control' is NOT 'banning', 'regulation' is NOT 'eliminating', and to write as if these terms are interchangeable, or as though he knows the 'true intent' of all those using the terms (he is a mind reader? a fortune teller?) is just - well, illogical and incorrect.Debteehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04197703432632549237noreply@blogger.com