tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post588532683926822873..comments2024-03-28T14:52:13.218-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Bang Bang Crazy, Part 14: The Cowardice of ResponsibilityJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-68770541957437903742022-05-29T08:19:16.211-05:002022-05-29T08:19:16.211-05:00I was trained in graduate school by an enormously ...I was trained in graduate school by an enormously intelligent and perceptive woman whose specialty was "moral responsibility", the fruitful and accurate comprehension thereof. So it's second nature to note what meanings people are employing, and what they're working hard to duck. when they use the term; and it's been a constant over the last decades to hear gun nuts insisting that "gun owners are responsible" SPECIFICALLY TO AVOID the threat of... ACTUAL accountability. They will scream how responsible gun owners are and never, ever answer the question "What about the ones who aren't?" Or, as you point out, shift the goalposts incessantly to change the ground from responsibility, as this idiot does when trying to make accountability depend on "conscious intention" so as long as he never intends to murder anybody, nothing he does or does not do with his guns can ever be a problem. You could also point out the pernicious linguistic sleight of hand "conservatives" rely on to transform any consequence into "punishment"; as long as I'm not a conscious murderer then I can't be asked to do anything to prevent mass murder, not even jump through any hoops to prove I'm not a likely mass murderer, so that people who ARE likely to shoot up schools won't clear the hurdles! Nope, nope, you and everyone else have to ASSUME I'm responsible and that however I behave with firearms is just dandy as long as I don't personally commit mass murder; therefore there are no gun safety standards at all other than "being not a conscious killer" and we all have to agree that the carnage caused by mass *irresponsibility* with guns is regrettable "accidental" bloodshed. <br /><br />This is NOT the cost of freedom; it is the cost of stupidity, irresponsibility, and an American 'gun culture' made up of men determined to use whatever mental powers they possess only to excuse themselves for both.<br /><br />How can anyone with even marginal sanity imagine "making the penalties for the actual criminal worse" will deter school shooters who have already decided to die that day? Do these idiots imagine that mass shooters think they will stroll out, when so many of them KILL THEMSELVES after they've gone through with their ecstatic self-assertion via AR-15?<br /><br />The only people I have heard tie responsibility into knots as tortured as those tied by gun nuts are evangelical preachers caught molesting teenage girls. When they're caught fondling the underage parishioners, these guys will turn the PUBLIC ATTENTION into an "attack on religion" and themselves into the "victims" of Sin and the Devil (as represented by, of course, Temptress Lolita) and claim their molesting the kid was REALLY the Devil attacking Christ, and so everybody has to forget about it RIGHT NOW or you're "helping Satan hurt God".MrsChaos Manorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09133347357749122010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-81035569145113572392019-09-04T22:19:50.577-05:002019-09-04T22:19:50.577-05:00Rereading this, I was enjoying your point by point...Rereading this, I was enjoying your point by point rebuttal of "Tony's" argument and thought "this is like shooting fish in a barrel". And it occurred to me; in the age of the internet one no longer needs to construct straw men, the construct themselves and then conveniently deliver themselves to your doorstep, wrapped in a ribbon and bow.<br /><br />Doesn't invalidate your logic though, you chose, as you said, one of the more articulate ones. And the lord and lady know, I've heard enough of these manly men evading responsibility before.Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16509609643029842132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-48953042212787760362018-07-08T14:50:19.162-05:002018-07-08T14:50:19.162-05:00I believe the argument is even stronger (if possib...I believe the argument is even stronger (if possible) when we look at the number of toddlers and extremely young children who get a hold of loaded firearms then shoot themselves or someone else. <br />Often the legal firearm owner is not charged with any crime.<br />Even though it's pretty clear negligence. If you can't keep a toddler from accessing your firearm you have no business owning a firearm. Period. Lets face it, the very least you should be able to do as a responsible gun owner is keep it out of the hands of a toddler.<br />In pretty much any other first world country that firearm owner would be facing charges, regardless if anyone was shot and killed.<br />In most he'd have his firearms taken away because he's shown him or herself to be irresponsible. <br /><br />In the USA it's just another day ending in the letter 'Y'. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-58968352856021803322018-07-01T19:41:22.674-05:002018-07-01T19:41:22.674-05:00As a flaming liberal, I have at least had the sens...As a flaming liberal, I have at least had the sense to realize that gun control, as in gun confiscation, is not going to happen. The past decade I have tried to talk up gun responsibility. Have found the same responses as you.<br /><br />One point I would add to your rant #14: while you correctly equate responsibility with accountability, my own personal mantra is "responsibility without authority is bullshit." Authority, that is, to do whatever responsibility requires.w_bishophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05845546708236495191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-72843532407727789662018-06-04T21:04:54.631-05:002018-06-04T21:04:54.631-05:00I'm a 66 year old, recently retired public sch...I'm a 66 year old, recently retired public school teacher. I've been waiting for weeks to get to the polls tomorrow and vote for John Tester to represent my state again. I know it's just the primaries, but these elections are the ones that really count. The local and state elections are really where my voice can be heard. I didn't read the whole posting. Get out there and vote. Maybe most of the people who read your blog are the voters and the non voters . . . I don't know, maybe they each have what they think is a good reason to not vote, but they really don't. I've never missed a single election since I became eligible to vote. I used to do it with pride and hope. Now I do it out of desperation, but I still vote every single election. aniroohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16538882219198237366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-11528216339116332712018-06-03T10:49:30.784-05:002018-06-03T10:49:30.784-05:00Thank you so very much for making this point so po...Thank you so very much for making this point so powerfully. It shouldn't take a graduate education in philosophical ethics to notice that people are using the idea that they ARE "responsible gun owners" in order to PREVENT anyone's holding them actually responsible for their actions regarding their guns. You aren't responsible in a vaccuum-- the very word RESPONSE implies a relationship between two subjects. Sure, a moral person holds himself responsible... but that doesn't allow us to dodge the entire system of morality that depends on others holding us accountable.<br /><br />It's beyond obvious to me that the primary difference between the United States and other first world countries is the cavalier disregard we permit for gun negligence. We don't HOLD people accountable for their insane disregard for gun safety rules, because oh, everyone "makes mistakes" and isn't it "unfair" to blame the parents who are already suffering so much because their son took their unsecured, loaded gun and committed suicide a la Columbine?<br /><br />Every person who relies on arguments like this is afraid he might get in trouble someday because he doesn't keep his guns secure. And he's trying desperately to pretend that his own negligence shouldn't matter as long as he, personally, doesn't "consciously decide" to murder someone, you know, with malice aforethought. But he isn't lax, or irresponsible, oh noes! He's tough on all those irresponsible criminals, "they" ought to all suffer more! <br /><br />In case you're still wondering what on earth he means by leniency, given that almost every surviving school shooter is in prison... he is pretending that American prison is leniency and we are "too nice" to prisoners. He probably has circulated that inflammatory email with the prison menu, claiming that American prisoners are eating too well. Personally, I don't get why people who are upset by the prison menu being better than what poor people can afford aren't more upset by the ridiculous poverty we allow, rather than convinced that inmates are being spoiled by the cafeteria.<br /><br />Why don't we enforce negligence laws when it comes to firearms? Do you know why? Are we really that sentimentally idiotic as a society, that we won't enforce laws against negligence if we see the negligent person as already "hurt enough"? Or are there really SO many people voting who are personally negligent with firearms and scared of being held to account? MORE scared of being held responsible than they are of being shot, say, by their own toddler when he pulls that .38 out of the purse that sits next to him daily on the carseat?<br /><br />Why do we allow this? Is it some basic cultural fact about right wing America, that we define being a good man by readiness to pull a trigger to "defend me and mine", and thus respond to any restrictions on guns as though they were restrictions preventing men from being good men?<br /><br />Anyway, that's enough guessing at a question I don't know the answer for. Thanks again for making the essential point that RESPONSIBLE people don't dodge being HELD responsible, and if you're using the claim that you're a responsible gun owner as an excuse, shrugging your shoulders about accidents being no one's fault... you are the problem.<br /><br />And I am reminded to go update my Patreon account since I have a new credit card number :)Judith Bradfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-33072391426387662652018-05-30T15:49:45.781-05:002018-05-30T15:49:45.781-05:00I don't know if you were being facetious or no...I don't know if you were being facetious or not with your comment regarding poll workers in District 1 wearing Trump shirts and hats or any other kind of paraphenalia, but assuimg you were not, if you see that again, report them to the Secretary of the Division of Elections.<br />It is a violation of Florida law for anyone to do that inside of a polling place. Am providing the link below for the Division of Elections Rules for the State of Florida. FYI. See page 5. See also, Section 104.31, Florida Statutes.<br /><br />http://dos.myflorida.com/media/695052/dsde11.pdf<br /><br /><br />Laura Taylornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-31660853566061255762018-05-30T13:53:58.850-05:002018-05-30T13:53:58.850-05:00I think it's from Heinlein.I think it's from Heinlein.Clashfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026959991449033059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-86312388500985968282018-05-30T08:56:58.478-05:002018-05-30T08:56:58.478-05:00Here is something I wrote you may enjoy. “All reli...Here is something I wrote you may enjoy. “All religions are a scam. I though that there is a law against being scammed. You do not need to prove whether or not there is a god, to show that religion is a scam. Religion and God have absolutely nothing in common. Religion is a scam. Is the earth flat? Religion at one time said so, and also that the earth is the center of the universe. Why did religion say that? God said so, is what religion told people. We now know different, so was God scamming you or was it religion? Wake up people, religion and God have nothing in common. It is obvious that God does not talk to the religious. You are being scammed by religion. The scammer’s should be jailed.”Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14507830648681643208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-60619658475358608692018-05-30T06:18:06.410-05:002018-05-30T06:18:06.410-05:00Accountability in Australia - a good thing:
http:/...Accountability in Australia - a good thing:<br />http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-30/slipped-on-eggplant-man-accidently-shot-farmer-court-told/9815410<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-45887958749771086572018-05-29T21:28:01.113-05:002018-05-29T21:28:01.113-05:00Humans are an animal with intellect. We have all o...Humans are an animal with intellect. We have all of these survival instincts. Some are enjoyable. Some are necessary, others harmful. Some are all the above. Love is a nice one. Most of the time they are neither good or bad depending upon whether you control them. Nothing wrong so far. Now comes the draw back. We also have the intellect to justify the misuse of these emotions no matter how we misuse them. What makes this even worse is that the smarter you are the better you can be at the misuse. Oh! And it is not only the harmful instincts we can justify. We can do the same with anything we want. I find no misuse of intellect by you. Of course I may not be smart enough to do so. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14507830648681643208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-53141449824152564722018-05-29T13:52:17.066-05:002018-05-29T13:52:17.066-05:00And exactly what does that have to do with the fac...And exactly what does that have to do with the fact that - victims are NOT responsible for the subsequent actions of perpetrators who stole their property?<br /> rconyershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12301305567959723585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-55452625410443503562018-05-28T19:29:32.176-05:002018-05-28T19:29:32.176-05:00If laws don't work, why are so many gun nuts, ...If laws don't work, why are so many gun nuts, and their NRA, so afraid of any laws regulating guns?Zhoenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03515663141425057088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-502694504873853012018-05-26T07:13:26.788-05:002018-05-26T07:13:26.788-05:00This bit made me wonder:
"And isn't that,...This bit made me wonder:<br />"And isn't that, accountability, the entire premise of your religion? Sure. Right? You've got free will, but if you don't follow your god's law, you go to your final judgement and get held accountable, so you'd better be good for goodness sake? Right?"<br /><br />Hmmm. From what I can tell, no. Most Christian sects believe that you will never be good enough to get into Heaven, right? Only forgiveness - completely unearned, by the way - can save you. But once saved, you're saved, and your sins are, and will be, forgiven. So, accountability? Out the window.<br />Interestingly, it almost always seems that others, you know, those people who aren't like me, THEY have to toe the line. If they don't follow the rules, they are out of luck. Oh, and there's usually a few extra rules for them, too.<br />Maybe this is a big source of the cognitive dissonance surrounding responsibility. <br />Hope this makes some sort of sense. Just a stream of thought I had while reading that just now.<br /><br />Bruce <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-30200989438327774632018-05-25T12:54:07.397-05:002018-05-25T12:54:07.397-05:00If your car was stolen, damn skippy you would be r...If your car was stolen, damn skippy you would be reporting it to the police as soon as you walked outside and found it was gone. At a bare minimum, shouldn't you be doing the same for a gun? This puts a bit of burden on you to check frequently that someone hasn't taken off with your firearm without telling you, but oh dear, that responsibility thing again.TheMadLibrariannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-85040573851084770152018-05-23T13:41:08.711-05:002018-05-23T13:41:08.711-05:00There is not a jurisdiction in the United States w...There is not a jurisdiction in the United States where the owner of an automobile can be held criminally liable for the actions of a person who stole their property. You can be cited for a civil violation ie: leaving the keys in the car, not occupying a running vehicle- but the moment someone illegally deprives you of your property, you are relieved of all culpability. Willfully and intentionally granting them use of your property does not relieve you of such. No where can a victim of a crime be charged for the subsequent actions of a criminal.rconyershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12301305567959723585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-68161207919736032512018-05-22T12:29:24.490-05:002018-05-22T12:29:24.490-05:00Which is also why they're so opposed to mental...Which is also why they're so opposed to mental health requirements and background checks. Because at the root of it, they KNOW they're the people who shouldn't be allowed weapons. And the thought that they might somehow be found wanting scares the pants off of them.Cthulhuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08097786256433955754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-31566836732841981612018-05-22T11:11:49.342-05:002018-05-22T11:11:49.342-05:00(Replying to "Bob" above - can't do ...(Replying to "Bob" above - can't do "Reply" for some reason)<br /><br />Unfortunately, the odds that Pagourtzis senior will have to render any sort of "accountability" - outside of a great deal of online harassment - are near-zero. I'd love to be proved wrong, but as far I can recall, nobody has ever been held legally liable (civil or criminal) for providing any mass shooter with the weapons they used: whether commercially or negligent-possession.<br /><br />Of course, this may be due to the fact that in the US, the trade in armaments is so widespread as to make such regulation as the gun lobby hasn't been able to kill nearly useless, and rules regarding safe possession of firearms are at best, minimally enforced even where they exist; but that's just crazy gun-grabber talk.... <br /><br />After all, as the universal response of vast numbers of "conservatives" online will jump up to remind us after every mass-shooting massacres: "Guns aren't the problem....[ANYTHING ELSE!!!] is the problem...."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319671562416490305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-58829000321605691292018-05-21T16:46:31.202-05:002018-05-21T16:46:31.202-05:00Superb essay, as always. From this perspective, I ...Superb essay, as always. From this perspective, I hear all the howling from the right about their being persecuted in the workplace, the media, everywhere else, and I realize they want to fill the world with fascist wino puke and not be made to justify it or clean it up. We're all just supposed to swallow it because freedom.<br /><br />Genuine ignorance I can understand. Willful ignorance is a different proposition, and demanding that it be given equal status with wisdom is the ultimate in cynicism.<br /><br />Per Ayn Rand, we've all let them; who will stop them? Dicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00143959038759146834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-9308960178440754862018-05-21T14:41:12.751-05:002018-05-21T14:41:12.751-05:00I read an interesting column some time ago by Geor...I read an interesting column some time ago by George Will (with whom I seldom agree, but did in this case). He pointed out that many of our existing laws could be considered the start of descent down the slippery slope but that up to this point, none had precipitated that slide. Made me resolve to think carefully in the future before applying that argument.ebrkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-26711941813648049962018-05-21T13:24:09.194-05:002018-05-21T13:24:09.194-05:00Dear Mr. Wright,
I agreed with your post, almost ...Dear Mr. Wright,<br /><br />I agreed with your post, almost without qualification. Please forgive me if what follows is merely hair-splitting and arguing about semantics and terminology but I think that it's worthwhile to make a distinction between personal responsibility and social accountability.<br /><br />I'm responsible for all of my actions, all of the time, and I'm responsible for the consequences of them, without exception. When I was enough of a medic to do my first internship on an ambulance I had to do CPR for real for the first time. It was not, at all, like what I'd practiced in class and the guy died. I was responsible for his death, right along with the real medics and the driver. I didn't do anything wrong. Instead, I did the best I could in a difficult situation. Most likely, no one could have changed the outcome (he was a late stage diabetic and had a major heart attack). I don't feel guilt for his death and there was no negative consequence for me.<br /><br />But I'm still personally responsible for it. I was there, I acted, and there were consequences. That's on me.<br /><br />Because I did what I was supposed to do to the best of my ability, within my training and the law, I was not punished or penalized by society.<br /><br />My point is that even the people who are saying, "What do you mean! How can you blame someone for letting their crazy son have access to a rifle?", are responsible. They can't avoid the responsibility because it's a consequence of cause and effect; your rifle + you allowed access + someone used it + people died = you're responsible.<br /><br />What you're advocating (and what I agree with 100%) is that people be held socially accountable (by way of criminal penalties) when they fail to act in a reasonable and prudent manner in owning their firearms. I also agree that idea shouldn't be a shocking or unreasonable step. As you pointed out, there's a massive body of statutory and case law supporting that level of accountability in many fields and industries. Why the hell should guns by any different?<br /><br />As a side note, a problem I see frequently is that people don't seem to get the idea that accepting responsibility for your own actions doesn't mean that other people can also bear responsibility for the result.<br /><br />It is as if some single person or factor must carry 100% of the blame for any negative outcome. The school isn't at fault for having bad security or under qualified resource officers. The legal owner of the firearm isn't at fault for allowing access to it. Our society isn't at fault for underfunding schools and mental health programs. It's all the shooter's fault (or, if you prefer, it's all the fault of guns and gun-owners). That's not a outlook that is very effective at actually solving problems.<br /><br />Thank you for the time you put into your blog. It is one that I read without fail and enjoy (if that's the right term) immensely. You've some fine ideas and you express them very well. Despite the generally high quality of your ideas, one really stands out. Like you, I've been around firearms all my life and they were a big part of a previous profession. In all that time, I haven't seen very many new ideas regarding gun control / reducing gun violence. Your suggestion that we need to change the culture around firearms, much as we changed the culture around drinking and driving, is completely new to me. And it's also the only one I've seen that I support wholeheartedly and without reservation. I hope to hell that it gets some traction but I fear, given the polarization in our political discourse, that it's not going to get far because it's too moderate and reasonable. And that sucks in a profound way.<br /><br />Warm Regards,<br />Alan BeattsAlan Beattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13881463872012757287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-25544909553833076992018-05-21T13:18:04.470-05:002018-05-21T13:18:04.470-05:00They expected that Congress would do its job by re...They expected that Congress would do its job by responding to changing times in a thoughtful and responsible way, not that the Constitution would be turned into a near-immutable sacred text, with the meaning of every word hard-fought, or that Congress would turn into a market for law-making, a thing they found repulsive. But greed and the fear of change are endemic in human societies, and here we are.Raven Onthillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634556869209594389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-12775399948448923012018-05-21T08:47:52.059-05:002018-05-21T08:47:52.059-05:00The authors of the Second Amendment were also thin...The authors of the Second Amendment were also thinking muskets. They couldn't possibly imagine rapid-fire killing machines readily available at Wal-Mart. They couldn't even imagine Wal-Marts, let alone high-rise shooting platforms, vast crowds of helpless victims, or people driven to kill multiple strangers for no sane reason. The founders would have been more careful with their words if they knew how they would be twisted, with such senselessly tragic results.James Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-7073335996797538732018-05-21T02:36:05.069-05:002018-05-21T02:36:05.069-05:00Our attitude towards gun ownership responsibility ...Our attitude towards gun ownership responsibility has made us the fools of the planet. People who think like Tony worry so much about our standing in the eyes of the rest of the world, why doesn't this embarrass them? Donna Drialonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-88680414574829887942018-05-21T01:01:30.676-05:002018-05-21T01:01:30.676-05:00It's "cark it." I think the other wo...It's "cark it." I think the other word is 'Kak" meaning Sh-t. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com