tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post4277441198498748506..comments2024-03-28T14:52:13.218-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Marines, Symbols, And A Little Perspective PleaseJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-8055164056597370512012-02-18T11:27:09.427-06:002012-02-18T11:27:09.427-06:00Jim, as much as I respect your opinion on all matt...Jim, as much as I respect your opinion on all matters military, I have all kinds of problems with this one. The fact is, the Marines involved DID violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice. <br /> Article 134 states "Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court."<br /> There are also pictures floating around of Marine Scout Snipers with that logo emblazoned on their rifles. I don't for one second believe that no one in that unit, which had to have a Commanding Officer and at least a few Staff NCO's, knew what the symbol represented. The lack of judgment displayed is appalling, and a deficiency of judgment is not a quality that should be fostered in any combat unit, especially an elite one where crucial decisions are made at a much lower level of rank that is normal in a typical line unit.<br /> I also realize that the "teaching opportunity" comment may mean a lot more than most would think. To put it simply, the perception may be that, since none of the Marines involved were subjected Courts Martial and we have no real word on whether or not non-judicial punishment was used, they got off scott free. This seems to be generating a lot of angst and hair pulling from folks who think this means that nothing whatever was done by way of punishment. I have heard Non-judicial Punishment (NJP) described as the military's "most lenient form of punishment," which is a bit misleading. NJP is simply a formal disciplinary hearing and sentence that does not rise to the level of seriousness of a Court Martial (the determination of whether or not to refer the proceeding to the general court martial convening authority is usually made, subject to certain guidelines, by the unit commanding officer after the results of a formal investigation are complete). Were an Officer or Staff NCO to receive NJP, it would invariably be a career ending event. Even if the Marines involved were not given NJP, there are plenty of ways to "punish" the behavior in question: low marks on their fitness reports, transfer out of the elite unit in question, etc. Any of these would likely spell an end to promotion and a separation from service for the offender. My guess is that at least some of the Marines involved, especially the Officers and Staff NCO's, have suffered some form of the above mentioned "punishment" and deservedly so. <br /> My other big problem is the "malicious intent" angle. Since when does that matter? Is it then ok to be stupid and dangerous as long as I mean well? Slippery slope, that.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09578918682897536518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-56750865125911904922012-02-17T16:04:53.236-06:002012-02-17T16:04:53.236-06:00Teachable moment, indeed. Instruction might begin ...Teachable moment, indeed. Instruction might begin with reviewing David M. Shoup's cautionary essay, "The New American Militarism," or the expanded book with the same title. It is, of course, no coincidence that Commandant of the Corps Shoup's title was re-used more recently by Col. Andrew Bacevich. <br /><br />That section would be followed with James Pontolillo's _The Murderous Elite: The Waffen SS and Its Record of Atrocities_. While confirming that the ShutzStaffel symbolizes inflicting death, it will certainly disabuse anyone but the hard core of the SS being any sort of honorable military organization worth emulating. <br /><br />Final reference would be Orwell's _Animal Farm_, beginning with chapter 5, where Napoleon reveals his purpose in sequestering the puppies.Scott 349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-21425966595787650902012-02-16T14:10:59.850-06:002012-02-16T14:10:59.850-06:00This happened 2 years ago. The USMC has rectified...This happened 2 years ago. The USMC has rectified the situation.<br /><br />Personally, I believe that this was neither innocent nor ignorance, but I wasn't there and I wasn't part of the investigation.<br /><br />Unlike some portions of the U.S. Government, the military doesn't slide too much under the carpet. It happens ON the carpet and the person with the bad judgement (intentional or otherwise) pays a price. It may not be the price others think need be paid, but there is a consequence for actions.<br /><br /><br />One final point: it is not illegal to be a Nazi in the US. Dumb as rocks and in desperate need of having a can of whoop-ass opened on their heads, but it is not illegal. The First Amendment is clear on this.<br /><br />Just like the First Amendment protects the Rabbi.Wine Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-7099880127304435832012-02-15T16:37:40.447-06:002012-02-15T16:37:40.447-06:00well, err, hi
I've been reading this blog for ...well, err, hi<br />I've been reading this blog for a month now, and, well, I might as well introduce myself with a comment and a question...<br /><br />I see why soldiers will-and have a right to-appropriate hardcore-death-dealer symbols. being "bad assed snake eating motherfuckers," well, I do see how that makes sense.<br />I have to follow those, however, who disagree (at least some) on the specific SS runes. I guess that's because I'm Austrian, but for me, this symbol is in its own category of just so very wrong. While many of the Waffen SS members were not volunteers (at least after 43) or necessarily fanatics, the Waffen SS as such was more than just a fighting organization. They were political, part of the special insanity that the SS was within an insane system and their use of the runes a much more "exclusive" thing than that of a skull. That doesn't make the Scout Snipers Nazis, or anything, but it makes the symbolism of this ignorant mistake a lot more problematic, at least to Europeans.<br /><br />Whether Europeans and their perceptions matter, well, that's a different issue. I like to believe, however, that NATO cooperation is a good thing; and the willingness of voters to support the U.S. does also depend on symbolic perception, as a certain German would-be chancellor learned in 2002. But I'd be interested in your opinion on that (or on NATO operations in general)<br /><br />Anyhow, I just wondered whether the Marines' history matters too -- unless I'm wrong, the Marines didn't see combat in Europe. Would members of a U.S. unit that has a proud history of fighting the Waffen SS strike such a pose? Or am I massively overthinking this?D. Ennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-48556795080303354642012-02-14T20:46:42.684-06:002012-02-14T20:46:42.684-06:00At least Rommel was known as a brilliant tank comm...At least Rommel was known as a brilliant tank commander (who handed the Americans their asses at Kasserine pass, and then died because of his possible involvement in an assasination attempt on Hitler). There is a reasonable justification for a tanker to have a picture of Rommel as a reminder of past battles that is different than using Nazi symbology that just happens to match the initials of scout snipers. I think there is a significant difference between the two incidents. One is a reminder of a tough and skilled enemy, the other, not so much.Bartimaeushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04041170926124714639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-9421457927791062182012-02-14T09:43:33.349-06:002012-02-14T09:43:33.349-06:00It is sad that we ONLY focus on the holocaust and ...It is sad that we ONLY focus on the holocaust and tend to ignore that Nazism promoted political violence, militarism, the elimination of employees' rights, exclusion of women from government by limiting their legal rights, assuming controlling the media, promoting racism - that a specific segment of society is the cause of all misfortune - and putting the state above the rights of ALL the people.<br /><br />Maybe it is easier just to focus on the Holocaust and ignore the rest of Nazism. <br /><br />Now back to Jim's blog:<br /><br />Earlier, I read the article on Nazsism on Wikipedoa, there was a picture of Schutzstaffel insignia: white Sig Runes on a black background. So this may be far more widely known than many thought.Lee27https://www.blogger.com/profile/00514038275077027651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-59974676083615874142012-02-13T20:59:09.653-06:002012-02-13T20:59:09.653-06:00I'll let Lee address his comment in detail, ho...I'll let Lee address his comment in detail, however I read that as individual members of German military and society, albeit those that were indeed Nazis themselves, weren't necessarily the evil that Nazism <i>itself</i> was. I think that was America's official position as well, vis a vis Werner Von Braun and the other members of the Peenemunde crowd. Note, I don't necessarily subscribe to this regarding Von Braun himself, Von Braun was certainly aware of what was going on in the Mittelwerk complex where POWs and Jews were worked to death in order to build his rockets. Something he was never called to account for. <br /><br /><i>However</i> noting that individuals maybe should be regarded separately from an ideology some of them (including men professional german military men) had imposed upon them isn't anything that I feel requires you, Anonymous, to be ashamed of the rest of us for. Just saying.Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-52066297743074124022012-02-13T20:49:20.254-06:002012-02-13T20:49:20.254-06:00"Sadly we focus on Nazis as an entity with li..."Sadly we focus on Nazis as an entity with little knowledge of its basis beliefs or philosophies besides murdering Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc." <br /><br /><br />I don't know about 'sadly' but maybe the focus is on the murderous elements of the Nazi regime because, oh, I don't know, it was such a major part of the movement?<br /><br />I'll say it again. Sometimes, I'm just so ashamed of my fellow humans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-51381561800881340642012-02-13T19:40:21.983-06:002012-02-13T19:40:21.983-06:00Before jumping all over the men posing with this f...Before jumping all over the men posing with this flag, exactly where were their commanding officers when these Marines came up with this flag? <br /><br />Several weeks ago I watched an excellent show on Military Channel about the last tank battle in the first war against Iraq. Several of the tanks had a photo of General Rommel and most mentioned him as father of tank warfare. No one seems to be bent out of shape of his influence.<br /><br />Sadly we focus on Nazis as an entity with little knowledge of its basis beliefs or philosophies besides murdering Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.Lee27https://www.blogger.com/profile/00514038275077027651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-19028541211904091692012-02-13T19:31:09.709-06:002012-02-13T19:31:09.709-06:00Well, whadyaknow, here's another 'oops, ju...Well, whadyaknow, here's another 'oops, just a coincidence' for you...<br /><br />http://godsownparty.com/blog/2012/02/u-s-military-camp-aryan-in-afghanistan-another-coincidence-like-the-waffen-ss-flag/<br /><br />sometimes, I just so ashamed of my tribe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-85665109131807907462012-02-13T19:15:00.908-06:002012-02-13T19:15:00.908-06:00thatcrowwoman @ 12:44:
As usual, I am with you, be...thatcrowwoman @ 12:44:<br />As usual, I am with you, be it on mudflats or here...<br />Jim, keep going!fromthediagonalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-79375428245419152352012-02-13T15:44:39.463-06:002012-02-13T15:44:39.463-06:00MY DH Happy Hussein tells me that when he was in b...MY DH Happy Hussein tells me that when he was in basic training (Army, 1974-ish), they got several whole day's training about the Geneva Convention with repeated warnings that some things just aren't done(pissing on corpses, say), are never acceptable, and will land your @$$ in the brig because we are Americans and we are supposed to be Better Than That, even if we are "bad assed snake eating motherfuckers, ... heart breakers and life takers."<br /><br />Ignorant, not innocent. Could be. I am a Jewess, and am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am also a librarian, and was once a history teacher, so maybe I have a longer memory than some folks about war and codes of conduct. I'm a firm believer in the power of the Teachable Moment, and life puts many of them in our paths every day, eh?<br /><br />Good luck with your battle against the evil germy invaders. Wish I could send you some of my friend Phoebe's hot'n'sour soup. It might not cure what ails you, but it always makes me feel more better.<br /><br />best regards,<br />thatcrowwomanthatcrowwomannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-12148218742939262022012-02-13T14:41:55.297-06:002012-02-13T14:41:55.297-06:00One major bit of contention with your article: it ...One major bit of contention with your article: it doesn't just bear "some resemblance" to the Nazi SS runes. That <b>EXACT FLAG</b> is for sale on Nazi memorabilia sites, which may well be where these Marines obtained it.<br /><br />This isn't a handmade logo that some ignorant sap came up with on his own- somebody went through the effort to buy that thing. The idea that an entire platoon of military professionals and their superiors were ignorant of its meaning strains plausibility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-64488590143250562902012-02-13T14:12:15.503-06:002012-02-13T14:12:15.503-06:00and the major said, "Fix that so as not to em...and the major said, "Fix that so as not to embarass the general. Now get your asses out there and kill some bad guys!"<br /> And they did.<br /> Thank God!MCPO RETnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-56023710869625843382012-02-13T13:29:19.856-06:002012-02-13T13:29:19.856-06:00Ignorance and youth. I teach a class that deals w...Ignorance and youth. I teach a class that deals with symbols and am finally getting used to the fact that my students (at least 90% of them) have no knowledge of what the lightning strikes stand for. (They do know how Hitler used the Swastika.) So, I'm not surprised that these young marines didn't make the association. <br />I wonder though, where they got the flag? Because, if they got it from one of the Nazi paraphernalia sites, then they have to cry idiocy and hubris rather than ignorance. They made a choice in using it that ignores meaning which I find a bit arrogant.Ceahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06643518385726488500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-29062455844230023572012-02-12T22:31:43.484-06:002012-02-12T22:31:43.484-06:00We send these guys in extreme harm's way to ki...We send these guys in extreme harm's way to kill those who they are told are our enemies. I don't object to even questionable imagery. <br /><br />Teachable moment, yes; condemnation, go fuck yourself. Try doing the job these guys do for 6 months and get back to us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-66304539799768337662012-02-12T16:38:05.562-06:002012-02-12T16:38:05.562-06:00I saw snipers tattooed with the the words "Sc...I saw snipers tattooed with the the words "Scout Sniper" (with the stylized lightning bolts) all the time while teaching at SERE twelve years ago. This is nothing new. I just wished they would think twice before etching that into their skin-kinda hard to claim you're NOT a sniper (if captured)when it's emblazoned on your chest. Hell, we used THAT as a teachable moment! Same for SEALs, Aircrew and anyone else who tatted their badge on themselves.<br />Dumb, yeah. Criminal, no.unclebuc82https://www.blogger.com/profile/15186384918240347624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-30544061293513677592012-02-12T16:25:09.446-06:002012-02-12T16:25:09.446-06:00My husband and I were just discussing this post an...My husband and I were just discussing this post and debating whether the Marines knew that the flag might be offensive. As we were talking, our 17 year old son walked in the door. I showed him the photo and asked him what he thought the lightning bolts looked like. "SS symbol. Absolutely. Haven't you seen Inglorious Basterds?"Parrothead27noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-44702608923203814112012-02-12T08:30:39.249-06:002012-02-12T08:30:39.249-06:00"FNG" gets it absolutely right. Marines ..."FNG" gets it absolutely right. Marines don't give a crap what anyone else thinks. And what are you gonna do to make their situation worse. <br /><br />If you want to see a strong, consistent, racist statement, what about the CSA flag flown outside the South Carolina statehouse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-20289619337637418312012-02-12T07:51:13.917-06:002012-02-12T07:51:13.917-06:00You can be dumb, and a marine, you can't be st...You can be dumb, and a marine, you can't be stupid, and a scout sniper. <br /> Half a life ago I was a black hat at J.O.T.C. , and we trained some STA/SS grunts. Half of them had pictures of Carlos Hathcock in their footlocker, the other half had some Nazi sniper whose name escapes me. After hours,they'd immerse themselves in being a sniper, most read about sniping, histories of sniping, and the people who snipe.<br />In all that studying they had to have learned what that flag was ,they had to know what those double S's looked like, and they had to know it would piss people off, but "Fuck 'em! what are they gonna do ? Shave my head,and send me to Afghanistan !" is an attitude most grunts have.<br /> They probably didn't have that flag as a symbol of hate, they didn't fly it over FOB whatever. That flag wasn't ment to be seen by anyone outside the sniping club, and that is the mistake they made. Dumb? No doubt, stupid? Not really.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-69572297454152269042012-02-11T21:46:37.351-06:002012-02-11T21:46:37.351-06:00I suspect the ignorance was not about the nature o...I suspect the ignorance was not about the nature of the flag, but why using that particular symbol was not a good idea. It looks like the place it came from sells lots of WWII flags-swastikas, rising suns, etc. On the other hand, I agree that those involved have probably learned their lesson and there are other more important things to get upset about.Bartimaeushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04041170926124714639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-22337076263882568502012-02-11T19:04:27.148-06:002012-02-11T19:04:27.148-06:00"Clearly, there's a shitload of ignorance..."Clearly, there's a shitload of ignorance going around." <br />Definitely in the running for Quote of the Year.beachdog67https://www.blogger.com/profile/09887850845423627424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-82555905727449955212012-02-11T11:56:50.379-06:002012-02-11T11:56:50.379-06:00I saw that photo for the first time yesterday when...I saw that photo for the first time yesterday when this apparently resurfaced, and the very first thing I thought was "Someone's screwed the pooch something fierce! In public!" Our schools quite comprehensively covers (or at least they used to, back in the 80's and 90's) the period between 1930-1945, including the symbols of the Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffel. In fact, displaying certain of those symbols in a non-educational context is banned by law here, which is why seeing US troops pose with that particular symbol gave me a rather unpleasant surprise. To get an idea of how my gut reaction on seeing that photo, imagine that the soldiers had posed in Klan robes in front of the Stars and Bars instead.<br /><br />That said I'm not going to ascribe to malice what is more easily explained by stupidity (or ignorance), so I'm going to take the official word for what happened. However, while context is indeed everything, it does occur to me that the USMC might wish to talk to any future members of the force as to how certain symbols will be perceived by others. As a sort of preventative thing, you see. Because while KISS using the stylized lightning-bolt 'S' in their logo is equivalent in one sense, they're a band. They're not, say, an active military unit operating in the field, whose actions will reflect on anyone in the service they're ostensibly proud to be a part of. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive due to the events of the 22. of July last year, but to me at least, a symbol like that -especially in a military setting- is evoking a historical context that no army unit, no matter how elite, should ever wish be associated with except in the fiercest opposition.<br /><br />No matter how you slice it, <i>someone</i> in that unit showed absolutely appalling judgement by picking that particular symbol to display. In my personal opinion, a stern talking-to is the <i>least</i> the person or persons responsible for that choice of symbol should expect or face.Olav Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-2409837704334119072012-02-11T11:21:15.026-06:002012-02-11T11:21:15.026-06:00A mistake was made, an apology was made, and some ...A mistake was made, an apology was made, and some folks learned something from the mistake. In my opinion, that is a good thing.<br /><br />Although he is a fictional character, a quote from John Rambo comes to mind: "Let it go."Marlene in PAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-64498476579514630382012-02-11T10:25:31.878-06:002012-02-11T10:25:31.878-06:00yeah, Jim, you pretty much got it right. So did t...yeah, Jim, you pretty much got it right. So did the guy who said that if there weren't potential consequences, it wouldn't be worth doing.<br /><br />I did my time in the Marines from '70-'73 and I assure you that most of the people my age that I served with would have done something equally stupid if given the chance (we won't mention the chandalier from the Cleveland Hilton that mysteriously ended up in the barracks at 8th & I; ...)<br /><br />I have no doubt that one or two of these guys knew what they were doing. The rest were just hamming it up and blowing off steam.<br /><br />If these guys should check out the tattoos from the 9th Marines ... "The Walking Dead"DerFarmhttp://yellowdogpolitics.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com