tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post3255839207009767606..comments2024-03-28T14:52:13.218-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Veteran’s DayJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger171125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-31614495951384001172020-01-25T10:02:46.955-06:002020-01-25T10:02:46.955-06:00I remember why I joined in the first place. I had...I remember why I joined in the first place. I had many reasons, some of them lack of options where I lived, no real plan for my life, wanting to escape my terrible father and the abuse I suffered with him, but mostly? I wanted to be Captain America. Not in the "stuff me full of untested chemicals and zap me with radiation" way, but in the "I feel like I owe my country something" way. Granted, I joined the Navy instead of the Army, like Cap did, but that's because the Nav was family tradition.<br /><br />I did my 4 and got out. Honorably discharged, but I was tired of being at sea all the time, and my MOS didn't much allow for shore duty.<br />(I know Jim, I know. You shouldn't join the Navy if you don't want to see the ocean almost every day.)<br /><br />Thing is, over the next 11 years, something pulled at me. I felt....adrift. Rudderless.<br /><br />I felt like I hadn't done enough for my country, to wear the title of "Veteran". I felt like I was unfinished. So of course, I joined the Army (Reserves). (Nobody ever said I was smart.) There, I found...enough. I managed to work my way up to Investigator in my MP unit, and was pretty good at it. I ended up not making my 20 because of off duty injuries, but I was at peace with myself.<br /><br />I'd gone and seen the elephant, you see. In my own eyes, I'd earned my veteran status, and I'd paid my dues to the nation. <br />And I'm good with that. I don't need anyone else's praise or thanks for it. Like Jim, I did it for myself, not them.Cthulhuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08097786256433955754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-60592987434270691042019-11-11T09:24:29.895-06:002019-11-11T09:24:29.895-06:00" Thank you for your service," is my com..." Thank you for your service," is my comment and you're welcome that I read it all the way through and that I read Heinlein's book all the way through so I know what you mean. I am reminded of Bill Murray in "Meatballs" movies where he said, "It really doesn't matter."Myra Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16130789740207190879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-23849662183632056182019-11-11T08:01:25.794-06:002019-11-11T08:01:25.794-06:00I wish my dad were alive to read your thoughts. H...I wish my dad were alive to read your thoughts. He spent 20 years in the army, 60-80, 2 tours in VN, infantry (1st Cav and MACV), but was the kindest and most gentle man I ever knew. Refused to ever hunt or kill anything after VN. I joined the reserves and ended up marrying an AD career soldier. The army was my home/family from day 1. It is a large part of who I am. But, I struggle. I read this every year. StacyLLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10132224290987135693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-85609951683887912612019-09-19T11:29:13.101-05:002019-09-19T11:29:13.101-05:00Thank you for your thoughtful comments. And your r...Thank you for your thoughtful comments. And your right one of the things an American Warrior, (And hopefully other Warriors), fights for is the right for others to despise him / her. And the fact that someone can openly despise an American warrior is in fact a good thing. It's called freedom bitches!!<br /><br />I grew up in Canada and my father was in the Armed Forces for 21 years. So me and my sister's grew up has "Army Brats" on various bases in Canada and Europe. This left me with a very powerful interest in Military History, and with a strong respect for the Men and Women who serve. It did leave me with a certain strong ambivalence about certain aspects of Military life. I could talk here about Military "Bullshit"; but that is a topic for another time. Also I am personally quite incompatible with the Military way of life. (I don't like being told what to do and just do it with no explanation about Why?.) In other words I am contrary.<br /><br />So why do I dislike Starship Troopers? Well because A), The "Hero" is more than a bit of a mindless twit who in the end seems to have been successfully brainwashed. (Very different from my father.) Not in the least a thoughtful Warrior. B), Outside the Military the society described and easily inferred from the book seems to be fairly rigid Oligarchy. With only "Citizens" allowed full rights, and then only after going through a process of what can only be called indoctrination into the acceptable way of viewing the world. Heinlein's view, in the novel, that only certain people who have shown the correct attitude etc., can have full rights of participation in the political process is a bit much. Heinlein also quite consciously modeled his society here on Ancient Sparta. (Sparta was a highly unpleasant oligarchy complete with Secret Police.) Given Heinlein's later comments I don't think Heinlein ever intended this "ideal" society to be Authoritarian. But bluntly it could not survive unless it was. And certainly the teacher's comments about force solving problems etc., does not give me warm fuzzies. And may I point out a problem solved by force merely shows how strong that party was not that they were right. C), Heinlein was a serious anti-Communist and yet in this novel he duplicated many of the same arguments that Stalinists made for one party rule. The most clear one being that Party Member's through education and experience have demonstrated their right to rule. Basically in Starship Troopers the elite, "Citizens" incorporate new "Citizens" through a intense process of indoctrination that satisfies the "Citizens" that they have accepted the ideals, aims etc., of the ruling elite. (Sort of similar to the Spartan education system for the Spartan elite.) I have little doubt about how the "Citizens" would try to deal with any challenge to their rule from outside the "Citizen" body.<br /><br />Despite Heinlein's comments I just cannot believe in such a society there would be freedom of speech etc. It would be authoritarian. I am just amazed that Heinlein, a fervent anti-Communist, would in any sense think this sort of crap ideal.<br /><br />D), The studied contempt for non-"Citizens" is bluntly very, very annoying and off-putting. This is especially important given that in this society "Citizens" rule, and so this contempt would have serious consequences for the population that is not "Citizens".<br /><br />Frankly what turns me off the book is not the celebration of Military Virtues, (Yes such things exist), but it's promotion of Authoritarian Oligarchy. Yes I know Heinlein didn't really intend that but frankly the society he thinks is ideal in the book cannot be anything but an Authoritarian Oligarchy. The fact that in the book Heinlein seems to think Citizenship a privilege that has to be earned by conforming to the correct philosophical point of view of the ruling elite is also annoying.xibalbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00224952131898257723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-15889390129378234802018-12-05T20:13:25.147-06:002018-12-05T20:13:25.147-06:00I remeber.
Every day all the time.
I wish it would...I remeber.<br />Every day all the time.<br />I wish it would get a little quieter.MDarlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04180112267115623180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-90889463769730491452018-11-23T19:49:49.255-06:002018-11-23T19:49:49.255-06:00I once met an Israeli veteran who had given basic ...I once met an Israeli veteran who had given basic training to soldiers that were not mentally capable of going through regular training. Israel has universal military service, so they train everyone, regardless of ability, and find a place for everyone to complete their service. Bill Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05912897300742235588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-65316001459995487032018-11-23T19:39:22.979-06:002018-11-23T19:39:22.979-06:00Did you see this op-ed on women in combat?
https:...Did you see this op-ed on women in combat? <br />https://nyti.ms/2zlW6dq<br />It has a reference to Starship Troopers. Bill Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05912897300742235588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-82678838037964164332018-11-23T15:22:20.904-06:002018-11-23T15:22:20.904-06:00Always, Mr. Wright, thank you. I have not served, ...Always, Mr. Wright, thank you. I have not served, but it is refreshing to know that I am not alone with these thoughts about patriotism, what it means to be a patriot, or to serve. <br /><br />For me, there's something to the adage that honor comes only after humility. And I am not even religious. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00500600136718444494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-45325200583636830342018-11-19T13:54:24.174-06:002018-11-19T13:54:24.174-06:00I just say, best 22 years of my life.
CW3, USA Re...I just say, best 22 years of my life.<br /><br />CW3, USA RetAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-23520436351577452762018-11-14T11:25:20.689-06:002018-11-14T11:25:20.689-06:00One of the minor characters in Starship Troopers i...One of the minor characters in Starship Troopers is a guy who enlisted and through no fault of his own washed out of basic training. He was not required to go back to civilian life and wound up as a cook on a troopship Johnny Rico was on. This cook wanted to serve and they found a job he was suited for. If I remember correctly, they would always find something you could do if you wanted to serve, even if it was counting the fuzz on caterpillars.<br />To me, the primary quality members of the military in the US now have is a desire to serve. Voluntary service. Probably for a host of personal reasons but it is still service, mostly to others. <br />You are going to laugh when I compare this desire to serve to Motherhood. Mothers for the most part serve their children without getting much in return. But they do it out of love. We as a society are better because of this service of love.<br />Mothers, veterans, and to a lesser extent, firefighters all have one thing in common. A willingness to put service to others ahead of themselves. The pay you receive is far less than you contribution to society. <br />It took a horrible war for the veterans of Starship Troopers to take control of the government and change it into something Heinlein wanted. I hope we never have to see that. But I do hope people understand quietly, inside their own selves, that this willingness to serve is something very noble and uplifting to all.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11230143443190589538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-50580103725606899792018-11-12T21:09:48.257-06:002018-11-12T21:09:48.257-06:00Jim, what do you think about Trump not going to ho...Jim, what do you think about Trump not going to honor veterans at Arlington Cemetery today? (much less his ignoring our WW1 veterans in Paris) <br /><br />FrecklesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-25548522397783029462018-11-12T17:16:22.632-06:002018-11-12T17:16:22.632-06:00Hey Jim, thanks for posting this again. I’m a Coas...Hey Jim, thanks for posting this again. I’m a Coast Guard veteran, and it’s a damn shame that they’ve been hung under the banner of “Homeland Security,” which creeps me out every time I hear it.<br /><br />I have a little bit from Doug Stanhope posted below. I’ll completely understand if it doesn’t make the page, but I found it amusing.<br /><br />https://youtu.be/YmzKmTIe_m4?t=1961<br /><br />Respectfully,<br /><br />Leroy<br />Leroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02021120389394278239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-67497219842738158952018-11-12T14:19:49.391-06:002018-11-12T14:19:49.391-06:00When we enlisted, we took an oath, not to flag or ...When we enlisted, we took an oath, not to flag or country or leader, but to the Constitution of the United States. We served to protect *all* your right, specifically including your right to criticize us and our leaders.<br /><br />Please continue to do so. As David Brin says, criticism is the only known antidote to error.Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-87160433594681955062018-11-12T14:11:36.903-06:002018-11-12T14:11:36.903-06:00I served at HQ SAC, in Force Timing and Deconflict...I served at HQ SAC, in Force Timing and Deconfliction (XOXP, dusally assigned to Joint Strategic Target Planning Staff/JPPP). We coded software intended to ensure that in the event of thermonuclear war, all of our weapons would get where they were supposed to go (you'd be surprised at how easy it is to set off a nuke once it's been armed).<br /><br />I completely understand the difference between "willing to fight" and "wanting to fight". We all prayed daily to whatever Gods we believed in that our weapons would sleep in their silos forever, but if it came down to it, we were willing to use those weapons in the final extremity.Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-39132954979160877762018-11-12T13:45:05.998-06:002018-11-12T13:45:05.998-06:00Juan was Filipino - he mentions early on about his...Juan was Filipino - he mentions early on about his family speaking Tagalog at home.<br /><br />Are you perhaps thinking of the protagonist of "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls", whose ethnicity wasn't mentioned until one of the meetings of the Council of Ouroborous? (Paraphrased, after someone on the council said something unpleasant, "I'm glad my skin is darker than yours, or I'd be called a bigot for what I'm thinking about you right now.")Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-25821637099204045172018-11-12T13:40:12.715-06:002018-11-12T13:40:12.715-06:00Heinlein was reportedly a big fan of "The For...Heinlein was reportedly a big fan of "The Forever War".Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-13183362807221205562018-11-12T13:14:30.316-06:002018-11-12T13:14:30.316-06:00Used to teach War Prayer in a section of my colleg...Used to teach War Prayer in a section of my college freshman level humanities course. As well as "Born in the USA", "Born on the Fourth of July" and "The Things They Carried". <br />Susan Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05978891698425094013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-71153744553275642552018-11-12T11:50:07.806-06:002018-11-12T11:50:07.806-06:00Many thanks, Jim. As a boy, it made me a little sa...Many thanks, Jim. As a boy, it made me a little sad that my father was unable to serve, especially when I saw WWII veterans marching in parades. It didn't seem right that he might be seen as somehow less a person than those being honored. I knew that he wasn't. Hell, it was obvious that he was a much better man than some other dads whom I knew had served, and my dad was far from perfect. The military does not have first claim on patriotism nor on our respect, for as you say, only "if he be worthy."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11625265878203000140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-52686574616559621262018-11-12T11:40:00.402-06:002018-11-12T11:40:00.402-06:00I am the daughter of a Korean Conflict veteran. He...I am the daughter of a Korean Conflict veteran. He built a bridge over the Imjin River, with bullets whistling past his ears on occasion. He saw his best buddy blown up by a land mine. He woke screaming in the night for years. <br /><br />But he never talked about his experience. So I grew up hating war, becoming a hippie dippy flower child, and went to college. But somewhere along the line, as I watched my older "brothers" march off to Vietnam - willingly and unwillingly - and then return anonymously, I changed. I learned that those who fight are not the same people as those who start the damn wars.<br /><br />Because of my times, women in the military were few. I had no female warrior role models. And I resented not being given a mandatory test of patriotism the same way men were - they got drafted and I sat at home. Nothing seemed fair - not the war, not their deaths, not my gender segregation from a rite of passage.. Then Grenada, Desert Storms I and II, and Iraq and Afghanistan and every damn where across the globe - we were at war again for things that did not seem to be worth the blood shed - ours or theirs.<br /><br />Sometimes, when people say I should not criticize the military because "they gave you the right to Free Speech", I correct them and say that the Constitution with its Bill of Rights give me free speech. And at no point in my life, have I ever witnessed an American military conflict that remotedly threatened free speech.<br /><br />Yet vets I've had serious, sober conversations wtih have said they served to defend the Constitution and all that entails. In their honor, I continue to comment on the state of our country and our footprints in countries around the world.<br /><br />It will be a long time before humans have developed to the point of not needing armies. Until then, I will fight for veterans to be treated well and respectfully. Military service was never a real choice for me, given my gender and my times. I hope that had military service had been asked of me, I would have stepped up, stood tall, and answered yes. <br />Susan Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05978891698425094013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-71161822458366259552018-11-11T20:43:25.105-06:002018-11-11T20:43:25.105-06:00Well said, sir, and here's a cold one to you a...Well said, sir, and here's a cold one to you and your messmates. Canadian squid sends.William Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15478966470309814414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-45392688903032436802018-11-11T20:17:01.901-06:002018-11-11T20:17:01.901-06:00DULCE ET DECORUM EST by WILFRED OWEN
Bent double,...DULCE ET DECORUM EST by WILFRED OWEN<br /><br />Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,<br />Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,<br />Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs<br />And towards our distant rest began to trudge.<br />Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots<br />But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;<br />Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots<br />Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.<br /><br />Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!---An ecstasy of fumbling,<br />Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;<br />But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,<br />And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...<br />Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,<br />As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.<br /><br />In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,<br />He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.<br /><br />If in some smothering dreams you too could pace<br />Behind the wagon that we flung him in,<br />And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,<br />His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;<br />If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood<br />Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,<br />Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud<br />Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,---<br />My friend, you would not tell with such high zest<br />To children ardent for some desperate glory,<br />The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est<br />Pro patria mori.<br /><br />———<br /><br />I paste this here because anyone who glorifies war has never been in one. <br />LKR, USNPixelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10639306880021925058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-12594451716773976232018-11-11T18:57:13.115-06:002018-11-11T18:57:13.115-06:00I find this no less true reading this today, than ...I find this no less true reading this today, than I did when I first read it a couple years before.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916318249716443498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-30721401661314614312018-11-11T18:57:11.453-06:002018-11-11T18:57:11.453-06:00I find this no less true reading this today, than ...I find this no less true reading this today, than I did when I first read it a couple years before.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916318249716443498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-39224630221288597482018-11-11T17:49:30.506-06:002018-11-11T17:49:30.506-06:00I should know better, but I got into a FaceBook ar...I should know better, but I got into a FaceBook argument with a woman who said that it is her right to "thank me for my service" and that I must gratefully accept her gesture. She chided me for saying that no one needs to "thank me for my service" because, as you say, I did not serve for them, but for myself and my shipmates. I served during the late '70s, during the Cold War, aboard an FBM submarine tender. The USN never sent me into harm's way. My VA benefits paid for my BSC, MA and helped me afford my first house. I made out on the deal for my nearly four years of Navy service (I took an early-out to start college.) I retroactively qualify for the Sea Duty ribbon (which did not exist when I served;) wasn't in long enough for a GC; did not serve during an eligibility period for the Nat. Def. In short, I came out with the same military awards that I entered with, except for the E-5 chevrons on the port sleeve. Nonetheless, I am proud of my naval service and made friends with whom I still communicate to this day. I wish THEM a safe and meaningful Veterans Day because we were "there" together; we share the camaraderie that only military people know. I need neither a parade nor some anonymous FaceBook woman "thanking me for my service." And I have no compulsion to accept her pseudo-jingoistic thanks. Jim Danielshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02840041108373983740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-86262190010027405612018-11-11T16:17:21.667-06:002018-11-11T16:17:21.667-06:00This is the third time I've read your essay on...This is the third time I've read your essay on Veterans' Day, which always leads to another reading of "Starship Troopers", my all-time favorite Heinlein book. I served in the Peacetime Navy from August, 1960 through February, 1966. The last 4 months on an involuntary extension because of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. I enjoyed my life in the Navy, sailing around the Pacific on various ships, and seriously considered doing my 20. Then I was transferred to shore duty and ran into a shitty prick of a commanding Officer, who made me realize that the Navy wasn't my "home". I don't really feel like a veteran, though, because I never saw combat or served my 20. I have several friends and acquaintances who did serve in Nam. Some more than once. Marines, mostly. Most don't talk about it. When I hear someone say "Thank you for your service", it upsets me. Most of the time it sounds like some trite phrase that people say, like "Good Morning", or "See Ya later".<br /><br />I get angry when I hear or read news stories about Iran and Afghanistan Wars started by politicians who were nowhere near a real war. Who never served, or served in Guard units to avoid the draft, but are more than willing to send others into battle, while they stand in front of cameras playing the macho man. Rambo wannabes.<br /><br />Heinlein made an interesting point about service to one's country being the gateway to citizenship. It needs to be considered.Sisyphushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12997190543226527492noreply@blogger.com