tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post2254576899580876381..comments2024-03-20T12:34:55.100-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Terrorists, Trials, and PetitionsJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-25408575107120526842009-12-02T19:45:43.729-06:002009-12-02T19:45:43.729-06:00Been away a bit Jim, but again, nice post.
My phi...Been away a bit Jim, but again, nice post.<br /><br />My philosophy in this whole matter is summed up neatly by this:<br /><br /><i><b>We’re Americans, we’re supposed to be the good guys. </b></i><br /><br />Kinda like the end of "A Few Good Men", eh? Perhaps one day we will be as wise as that cashier lance Corporal Downey...<br /><br />We'd be much safer and much further ahead in leading the globe in some real GLOBAL problems if we could keep this simple sentence in mind.<br /><br />SPServing Patriothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14984393452206039835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-78203818465286343092009-12-02T02:21:46.585-06:002009-12-02T02:21:46.585-06:00California People, you're all talking about pe...California People, you're all talking about petitions to get an item on the voting agenda. And you are, of course, correct - especially in California, land of the outraged, knee jerk petition. Those petitions have very specific rules and laws that govern how they are administered and the only thing they do is get something on the ballot, nothing else.<br /><br />That's not what I'm talking about in this post. What we're talking about here are petitions aimed at changing the behavior of politicians. This petition supposedly expresses widespread disapproval for holding terrorist trials in New York. But there's nothing binding about it. Nor should there be. The petition is an empty gesture, it means nothing - no politician is going to pay any attention to it whatsoever. And they shouldn't.<br /><br />Totally different thing.Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-43577438227616911862009-11-30T22:35:57.683-06:002009-11-30T22:35:57.683-06:00Having resided in northern California for (cofftoo...Having resided in northern California for <i>(cofftoolongcoff)</i> seventeen years now, I can tell you those petition drives are too successful for all the wrong reasons. They bring out the wingnuts from both ends of the political spectrum (north of the Bay Area there actually is more than one end to that spectrum), frothing at the mouth and annoying citizens who are just out trying to do the shopping, or enjoy a festival, or whatever. I could <i>wish</i> they'd annoy everyone to the point where they do what I do -- refuse to sign any petition whatsoever.<br /><br />One day, annoyed at the persistence of the fellow who was shoving his petition in the face of every passerby he could reach, my husband (who spent several years in local/state politics) actually stopped and questioned him pretty thoroughly about the nature of the document he was pressing on everyone. Politely, firmly, refusing to take his sound-byte repetitions as real answers. After two questions, the idiot was completely flummoxed -- and foaming at the mouth.<br /><br />I'm not kidding. He had little flecks of foaming spittle collecting at the corners of his mouth -- but no answers past the facile, shallow things he'd been told by whatever loony-bin local group that had gotten him as a volunteer. M dismissed him, we entered the store and did our shopping.<br /><br />When we came out, the line to sign that damned thing was as long as it had been when we entered -- but the mouth breather refused to make eye contact with us as we left. I have no idea if his petition made it onto the ballot, but I kinda doubt it.<br /><br />As for the trials -- you've parsed it pretty much as I have. I do think the proper venue for terrorists is the world criminal court. Since that's not going to happen, try them as the common thugs they are and have done with it. This has been hanging around our necks for much, much too long.Alesia Matsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15519487703722156234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-25937313981288812572009-11-30T12:19:57.643-06:002009-11-30T12:19:57.643-06:00I would point out that approximately 3000 homicide...I would point out that approximately 3000 homicides took place in the State of New York, County of New York, and the local DA is not prevented from bringing trial. <br /><br />His hands are unsullied by Federal actions, although existing evidence would (probably) be tainted.<br /><br />The lawyer I asked is of the opinion that while Federal charges take precedent, they do not negate the NY ones.<br /><br />With regard to the German saboteurs captured on the beach in WWII. They were not operating in uniform, but in civilian clothing. As such there is some question if the Geneva accords even requires a trial. And if I recall, a Supreme court justice sat on the tribunal.Warner (aka ntsc)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12924176333302007261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-87378606529826703672009-11-30T09:21:16.496-06:002009-11-30T09:21:16.496-06:00I think a secondary effect of a civilian trial wou...I think a secondary effect of a civilian trial would be that some of the dirty laundry of the methods and tactics of the interrogations and prisoner treatment would be brought into the open for everyone to see, and the perpetrators of such, who wiped their collective asses with the constitution, might just have to answer for it. At least it’s my personal hope. Maybe even the Glorious Leader of the right wing of the GOP might have to defend himself from this “hidden location” in Wyoming. Sorry for the run-on sentence.<br /><br />tates... is that a noun or verb?Thordrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02483497564571489980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-23824392453546526662009-11-30T07:51:17.342-06:002009-11-30T07:51:17.342-06:00I agree that we should try them in civilian courts...I agree that we should try them in civilian courts, but only for one very simple reason. We try them as common criminals. That is a political statement. The other side just loves that we've declared war on them because it legitimizes their claims and makes them appear more scary than they really are. Instead we should tell the world they're nothing better than common thugs and we know how to handle common thugs.<br /><br />We'll try them, give them the full protection of law, have the special rules for state's secrets (when needed), and as long as we've done everything right, find them guilty and hopefully for a capital crime. And while I agree with the hanging part (and here I'll lobby for a pirate's hanging which is slightly different) or the cutting of heads and Mast of Morrigan treatment, I'll settle for the injection after all their appeals are heard.<br /><br />At worst, even if the case is dismissed, they're going right back to Gitmo or where ever we end up holding them. There's plenty of other reasons to hold them in custody.Steve Buchheithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12999709767641212586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-32113075455085338602009-11-30T03:42:39.068-06:002009-11-30T03:42:39.068-06:00well i think a fair trial in New york is a good id...well i think a fair trial in New york is a good idea. now for those who know me wait and hear me out, i agree jim the evidence is tainted and in any fair court there case would be thrown out. so let it let the case be thrown out in the eyes of the world and grandstand on national Tv as they walk out of the court house free men into the streets of new york city. were thousands of americas favorite sons annd daughters, yes New Yorkers will be waiting to greet them with open arms as free men. i belive that if this were to be the course of events then America and the world will be a very happy placeJarheadJournalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07129265452987178966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-73908247427188583432009-11-29T21:50:30.353-06:002009-11-29T21:50:30.353-06:00I was wondering what you'd say, Nathan, being ...I was wondering what you'd say, Nathan, being a New Yorker and all - nice to know that I know you well enough to predict your response within two decimal points. ;)Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-54190548810650682262009-11-29T21:49:11.936-06:002009-11-29T21:49:11.936-06:00Nick, well, Cahleefornia is always the exception t...Nick, well, Cahleefornia is always the exception to the rule when it comes to politics, how's that working out for you by the way?<br /><br />And that's why I said "rarely" instead of "never." Though I think you'd be hard pressed to find a petition, electronic or otherwise, that succeeded in changing policy at the national level.Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-28413616316074489502009-11-29T21:48:40.642-06:002009-11-29T21:48:40.642-06:00This (NY) is where the crime happened. This (NY) ...This (NY) is where the crime happened. This (NY) is where the trial should take place. PERIOD.<br /><br />BTW, I agree that that simple concepts like murder and conspiracy, etc. should be the charges, (not terrorism), but I'll also point out that trials in NYC have a 100% conviction rate in similar trials. I'm willing to put up with a little more traffic around Foley Square while it's going on. I'm even willing to put up with the possibility that some asshole will try to "avenge" his brother because of the trial.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648438549121320566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-74033499292085836952009-11-29T21:13:42.213-06:002009-11-29T21:13:42.213-06:00"Petitions in general rarely work other than ..."Petitions in general rarely work other than on the local level, they almost never affect the actions of the state or federal government in any way, shape, or form."<br /><br />Speaking as a native Californian, Jim, I heartily wish you were 100 percent correct in your statement (above).<br /><br />Unfortunately for me and my fellow citizens of this Golden State, we seem to be the exception to your rule.<br /><br />Gotta love our Propositions ... not.Nick from the O.C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-86028113427915237652009-11-29T19:06:32.445-06:002009-11-29T19:06:32.445-06:00Civil amended to Civilian. Thanks, EricCivil amended to Civilian. Thanks, EricJim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-50145861342519196022009-11-29T18:55:50.868-06:002009-11-29T18:55:50.868-06:00Jim, though I read your blog nearly every day I ra...Jim, though I read your blog nearly every day I rarely comment for two reasons: I usually agree with your position and you seem to have thought of most of the angles and, therefore, I don't have much to add. One thing I will add here is another wrinkle. <br /><br />You are absolutely right to say we give them a fair trial not for them, but for us. Not only is the world watching but, more specifically, the world Muslim community is watching. If we are ever to start building bridges to that community instead of burning them, this is the time. It will certainly take generations to establish any meaningful relationship with most Muslim societies, but I do believe this could be a first step in building America's credibility. <br /><br />The downside of taking that chance is, of course, the possibility of an aquittal for one or more of the defendants and the subsequent media circus. One can easily picture a situation similar to the homecoming of Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi, the freed Lockerbie bomber, writ large. For those who think that is the worst that could happen from this already flawed situation, I would urge you to think again. The worst would be the worldwide condemnation that would result from a military tribunal (read "sham trial") and execution of sentence. Like it or not, we need to deal in a fair and honest manner with the rest of the world community in order to prosper as a nation. A trial that progresses through the normal, constitutionally mandated process is the only way to go.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09578918682897536518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-29741775050777124132009-11-29T18:27:25.461-06:002009-11-29T18:27:25.461-06:00Jim, I think you mean a civilian court. A small t...Jim, I think you mean a civil<i>ian</i> court. A small thing, but significant: in the United States, a civil court trial would involve victims suing the alleged criminals for a tort and only monetary damages would ensue.<br /><br />I agree entirely that they should be treated as accused <i>criminals</i> and not "terrorists," and for exactly the reasons you describe. (I couldn't have put it better myself.)<br /><br />And you're also right about what happens with disruptive defendants. One of the appalling things about the right-wing position on criminal trials for these suspects, above and beyond the delay/denial of justice and the fact that we are (as you say) supposed to be the good guys, is that the right appears to have no faith in our system of justice at all. Should one of them stand up and start giving a speech about his religion, or politics, or the alleged evils of America, <i>he would not be the first and surely would not be the last</i>. Some defendants do that--and they get told to sit down, shut up, or face sanctions including additional charges for contempt and being removed from the courtroom and tried remotely. The justice system has been dealing with people like this for <i>centuries</i>.<br /><br />(To which I expect someone may say, "Oh no, not someone like <i>these</i> people, <i>these</i> people are blahblahblah--" Horseshit and nonsense! Our system has tried anarchists, mad bombers, serial killers, saboteurs, mob thugs, and anyone else you can name, in peacetime and in wartime and any other kind of time, and the only thing different about <i>these</i> defendants is the number of indictments, so don't even bother with that played-out "these men are different" garbage.)<br /><br />Speaking of which, one minor but perhaps pointless bit of disagreement, Jim: having finally gotten around to Michael Dobbs' <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Saboteurs-Nazi-America-Michael-Dobbs/dp/1400030420/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259540402&sr=8-14" rel="nofollow"><i>Saboteurs</i></a>, I'm not wholly convinced there was ever a time these men could have gotten a fair trial--<i>FDR</i> said something similar about the captured Nazi spies to what you said about these men when he ordered a military tribunal for them--he wanted a quick trial and good hanging. That having been said, two of the men received prison sentences for their co-operation, which were commuted after only a few years. Still, even without an active act of violence--the Nazi raid was very similar to the 9/11 criminals in its goals and implementation, but the mission leaders seem to have been more intent on defecting back to the U.S. than on actually destroying lives and property--anger ran high and strong against the men.<br /><br />But just because a fair trial is unlikely doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to live according to our principles and not enslaved to our fears. FDR also said, famously, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." Today, I'd say we have nothing to fear but fear and the cowards who don't believe in our most basic civic institutions.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.com