tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post1210368591901921851..comments2024-03-28T14:52:13.218-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: LoyaltyJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-37344731978471414572009-10-21T22:37:58.910-05:002009-10-21T22:37:58.910-05:00Well the blog I created/ignore/try not to whine ab...Well the blog I created/ignore/try not to whine about too much was a pure vanity excericse and the last time I looked I still had zero comments so I'm not sure how much I'm qualified to comment on your rather well thought-out points.<br /><br />However... I'm really "just a commentator" - not looking for anything more. I've never really thought past that point except to say that just because someone interests me and writes things that I occasionaly try to make semi-intelligent comments on doesn't automatically mean that I want to become their friend. I do make comments on blogs where that is the last thing I'd want to happen. I don't think the blogger owes me anything, I'm just grateful for those people who put themselves out there like you do and create something that I find good to read for all kinds of reasons. I like to feel that if I were to comment to the effect that I disagreed with you on something you'd written about then you would not go completely medieival on my arse about it but also wouldn't question your right to do so if that was your decision. What's the point of having opinions if you're not prepared to A: express them or B: defend them. I am no more a fan of anonymous e-mail haters then anyone but that doesn't make me want to pander to the LCD either just to get me some peace. I hope you continue to be yourself, both in private and on this blog. I know I'll continue to read it as long as it's up here.MikeBhttp://zedefrag.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-50179713703453888092009-10-20T14:53:57.407-05:002009-10-20T14:53:57.407-05:00And we established that you were a problem. ;)And we established that you were a problem. ;)MWThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09446603415730525882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-59251039343014323862009-10-20T08:27:56.254-05:002009-10-20T08:27:56.254-05:00Eric's blog was one of the things I was thinki...<i>Eric's blog was one of the things I was thinking of when I said "and you may not even like them as people because you find them annoying and borderline troll-like." I wsa trying to be vague in case he comes here too. >.></i><br /><br />But... but... but.... I COME HERE ALL THE TIME!<br /><br /><br />;-)Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-29458258149698089692009-10-20T01:27:17.881-05:002009-10-20T01:27:17.881-05:00Man, sit in a semi-sucky meeting all day and I alm...Man, sit in a semi-sucky meeting all day and I almost missed the good stuff...<br /><br />Eric, RMK, Janiece, and SP (among others) pretty much put it all together for me - and paraphrasing them I can say that it's about reciprocal respect (that I get to pay first, as admission), and that if I've chosen someone as a friend, then they also have my loyalty - though I may not always be in agreement, but that is part of the development of a friendship. Whether the respect is delivered online as part of this loose ruled community or in live space does not matter - it is respect.<br /><br />I think a reader is more than words on a screen - since the author is most certainly. If you would be loyal to me for coming back here day after day, reading and laughing along or thinking hard because of what you've written, then I will keep coming back - and I'll try to pay the same respect I see given. <br /><br />But, it's your blog - you don't owe anyone a damned thing - though that shot and a beer sound pretty good right now...<br /><br />I know I got in late and all, and I'm one of the the new guys, but thank <i>you</i>, Jim.<br /><br />Now go get the chicken out of the dishwasher...Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11854671368992589012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-24807621906793208822009-10-19T22:44:14.317-05:002009-10-19T22:44:14.317-05:00Oh figures. I stop refreshing the thread to write ...Oh figures. I stop refreshing the thread to write my lengthy tome, and everybody's gone off to hose fights. :pMWThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09446603415730525882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-57337140140814913882009-10-19T22:42:37.617-05:002009-10-19T22:42:37.617-05:00That's it, MWT, I'm striking you off the F...<i>That's it, MWT, I'm striking you off the Friend List</i><br /><br />Noooes! Now I'll never be a real sycophant. T.T<br /><br />Eric's blog was one of the things I was thinking of when I said "and you may not even like them as people because you find them annoying and borderline troll-like." I wsa trying to be vague in case he comes here too. >.><br /><br />Also, a blog is not a forum. It might look similar to one, but there are important differences that change the group dynamics. In the types of blogs we're thinking of, there is one owner who starts every conversation and chooses all the topics. The commenters might be friends or not, some might be favored and others not, but on the whole they're on equal footing with each other but not the blog owner. Forums might have moderators (and some might have extremely oppressive ones), but anyone can start a conversation topic at any time.<br /><br />That's a single blog. A group of blogs where (nearly) everyone has one, and also reads and comments on each other's, that's more of a community on equal footing. On one end of that extreme you have the UCF, which is basically a collection of separate blogs with similar blogrolls and commenters in common (or at least it started out that way); on the other extreme everybody's blogs are actually within the same space on the same site with a unified layout (the late great writing community at Hobgoblin.net was like that). Livejournal is sort of an in-between.<br /><br />Every community is different, because the people in them are different. I don't think you're going to find a grand unifying theory of online communities, blogging and/or otherwise.<br /><br />As for Whatever in particular: to me, the main detraction is that the community has shifted a lot from what it was when I first showed up there - before he started winning awards and attracting lots of readers from other communities that I like rather less. I liked what was there before. I also know it's not coming back - whether I or the blog owner or anyone else likes it or not, the community isn't going to shift back to the way it was. Unless he wants to start pissing off a ton of socially-weighty people by making them go away, maybe, but I don't see that happening.<br /><br />The starting up of the 'e' and then the coalescing of the UCF happened right before things started to really change, or at least when I noticed the change.MWThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09446603415730525882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-19119576890466285302009-10-19T22:14:33.333-05:002009-10-19T22:14:33.333-05:00Pantyhose? :DPantyhose? :DJohn the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-18692096666332049832009-10-19T22:05:46.004-05:002009-10-19T22:05:46.004-05:00Don't make me turn the hose on you two. I'...Don't make me turn the hose on you two. I'm warning you.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-44663409674808274212009-10-19T21:58:15.362-05:002009-10-19T21:58:15.362-05:00I also discriminate against Moose-Americans, so PB...I also discriminate against Moose-Americans, so PBHBHHTTTTTTT!Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648438549121320566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-49436079150971482102009-10-19T21:44:06.181-05:002009-10-19T21:44:06.181-05:00Stop agonizing and parsing and looking for depth o...<i> Stop agonizing and parsing and looking for depth of meaning. The simple answer is that you owe me a shot and a beer. I'll let you off the hook until we meet...but not a minute longer.</i><br /><br />What is that? Some kind of attack on women and gay men in bikinis? You sexist homophobic bigot, you!Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-6725285807932344542009-10-19T21:38:10.099-05:002009-10-19T21:38:10.099-05:00Jim,
Stop agonizing and parsing and looking for d...Jim,<br /><br />Stop agonizing and parsing and looking for depth of meaning. The simple answer is that you owe me a shot and a beer. I'll let you off the hook until we meet...but not a minute longer.<br /><br />See? That was <em>easy</em>. Did I help?<br /><br />P.S. All Stonekettle Station readers are hereby on notice that I, Nathan, am now up on points in the "_______ is an asshole" contest. Out-asshole <em>that</em> answer, Mr. Wright!Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648438549121320566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-24602026800681961812009-10-19T20:25:43.188-05:002009-10-19T20:25:43.188-05:00Don't be a dick is pretty much the summary of ...Don't be a dick is pretty much the summary of my commenting rules page here on SS. By extension, I try to makes sure it applies to me as well.Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-20448117419614547082009-10-19T20:13:00.700-05:002009-10-19T20:13:00.700-05:00*scritches ShopKat*
Something I meant to add in m...*scritches ShopKat*<br /><br />Something I meant to add in my previous post:<br /><br />In general I agree with the dictum "Don't be a Dick!"<br /><br />It's possible to be a dick by inaction as readily as by action, but the consequences aren't typically as obvious.<br /><br />Found this page trying to see who originated the phrase (which I first saw at Wil Wheaton's blog), and it's oddly helpful:<br /><br />http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dickmensleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-42474202112247185252009-10-19T19:56:22.928-05:002009-10-19T19:56:22.928-05:00I've written three comments to you about this ...I've written three comments to you about this post, and deleted them all. There doesn't seem to be anything to say beyond:<br /><br />I like being here, talking to you. <br /><br />CassieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-26770907972274548552009-10-19T19:48:57.991-05:002009-10-19T19:48:57.991-05:00I'm gladder that you and the gang let me hang ...<i>I'm gladder that you and the gang let me hang out</i><br /><br />It's not me, you're all just words on a screen to me - but for some damned reason ShopKat has taken a shine to the lot of you ;)Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-45225956487196070832009-10-19T19:45:04.168-05:002009-10-19T19:45:04.168-05:00I'm a commenter, not a blogger, so can only sp...I'm a commenter, not a blogger, so can only speak from the audience here. I have participated in online communities both actively and in my current rather inactive mode of reading blogs and occasional commenting. I like blogs where I feel like I am welcome or at least know what to expect from the topics. Size certainly makes a difference- I wouldn't have been joining the cookie and cider brigade at a large blog.<br /><br />I personally don't like screechy monkey, talk-radio imitating commenting, and will avoid threads/blogs where that is the norm. That other blog seems to be falling (or at least some topics fall) into the screechy monkey zone. <br /><br />I'm glad you're here and that I found you. I'm gladder that you and the gang let me hang out, annoy ShopKat, and eat and drink virtual food with this virtual community.Pam Adamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-50398875428251653962009-10-19T19:33:17.118-05:002009-10-19T19:33:17.118-05:00Jim,
I appreciate what you write here... and the ...Jim,<br /><br />I appreciate what you write here... and the courage (or craziness) in putting it out there for everyone to see forever. That said, I don't feel <b>entitled</b> but come away satisfied from reading your words.<br /><br />And if I wasn't, I wouldn't come back. Simple as that. Its a big internets out there and you CAN find pretty much whatever you want.<br /><br />So, only you can feel an innate loyalty to those who read you. Most are your friends, some interloping screechers (easily ignored or perhaps toyed with) and those disrespecting the ownership, asked to leave. At least that's how I see it.<br /><br />SPServing Patriothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14984393452206039835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-23181776324938095922009-10-19T19:09:54.593-05:002009-10-19T19:09:54.593-05:00er, "the way it was handled"er, "the way it was handled"mensleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-4603282438915615732009-10-19T19:07:41.894-05:002009-10-19T19:07:41.894-05:00As someone who's on many an occasion gotten in...As someone who's on many an occasion gotten in trouble for offhand smart-ass comments, I am in *awe* of your ability to start an unintentional internet shitstorm. (bows to our esteemed host)<br /><br />That said, you ask interesting questions. I agree with many who have commented here, but in general it tends to be site-specific and moderation policies tend to evolve over time with the best leading to an increasing sense of community rather than the opposite.<br /><br />Also, the larger the readership the stronger the moderation needs to be to keep the screeching monkeys from taking over and driving off the more thoughtful commentators.<br /><br />I'm all in favor of a light moderation hand in general, and it's not my job to tell anyone how to run their own blog, but a light "He apologized, move on." comment might have helped instead of the was it was handled. The more emotional people seem to be getting would tend to have me at any rate lowering my moderation asshat threshold, but I would hope to also be quick to forgive and support those who are genuinely trying to get the conversation back on track after an unintentional derail.<br /><br />Anyway, I mentioned this to my wife who's in the process if applying to PdD programs hoping to specialize, in part, in feminist theory. She hadn't read too far down the thread but said, "Hey, I remember that comment. I thought it was funny."mensleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-14088354258550445822009-10-19T16:34:26.981-05:002009-10-19T16:34:26.981-05:00I think readers are more than words on a screen, i...I think readers are more than words on a screen, if only because someone must have typed 'em.<br /><br />But seriously, I don't pretend you owe me anything other than what you put up.<br /><br />I guess I've never really thought of this much. Hm.Dicing with Dragonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03132972790091524968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-52281283581091708792009-10-19T13:55:54.636-05:002009-10-19T13:55:54.636-05:00Nick, your thoughts are similar to my own in some ...Nick, your thoughts are similar to my own in some ways. <br /><br />But again, while this post was inspired by my personal experience last week, overall it's a much broader question - I.e. Are readers more than words on a screen, are these so called online communities really communities or only wishful thinking? If they are indeed real communities what kind are they? Dictatorships? Cliques? Free for alls? Can they be democratic or must they be benign kingdoms? Are there universal truthes and rules that apply to all, or are each unique universes?<br /><br />I see the germ of a story here.jim wrighthttp://www.stonekettle.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-79829031312264279782009-10-19T13:51:27.396-05:002009-10-19T13:51:27.396-05:00I don't know what bloggers owe their readers, ...I don't know what bloggers owe their readers, really, though this has never stopped me from having opinions about anything. <br /><br />As a blogger myself, I have to say that I started it for my own amusement and while I welcome visitors and I hope they enjoy it, I also know that a) I get few enough of those, and b) even fewer comment, so if it wasn't for me there'd be no reason for it in the first place. It's my blog. Guest welcome, but remember that you're guests and don't get a say in the running of the establishment.<br /><br />That said, I think I do owe those readers more than words. I owe them what goes behind the words - the honesty not to screw around with them, the responsibility to provide what I say I'll provide (i.e. posts, with some regularity, as well crafted as I can manage), and so on. I owe my readers the same respect I demand for myself - that we take each other seriously, accept what we are and how that may or may not be quite different from each other, and the space to share opinions - even offensive opinions - with a modicum of civility.<br /><br />I don't owe anyone more than that. I don't see other bloggers owing me more than that.<br /><br />BTW, Jim, I saw the post that sparked this, and I got the joke even with the sarcasm html code. Let the monkeys screech, and to hell with them.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03463621516644789183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-86178150246246926592009-10-19T13:31:43.132-05:002009-10-19T13:31:43.132-05:00Jim, I'm not really a member of this blog com...Jim, I'm not really a member of this blog community yet, so I venture an opinion with some trepidation. I too have pondered the duty owed commenters on a website, for the same reason you have. I didn't like last week's experience, and I was only a bystander, not the target.<br /><br />I like what MWT said, and I also like with Random Michelle K said as well. I'm going to try to put them together.<br /><br />I think the blog site was started for purposes of exercising the writing muscle, to try things out and see how they looked/what reaction was received. The author has said as much. But that was in 1998 and things have changed since then.<br /><br />What has changed is that, for better or worse, whether intended or not, the site has become a community. It gets somewhere between 25,000 and 40,000 hits a day. Considering that my business website is lucky to get 30 hits a day, that's saying something. So all those folks have built up a certain common understanding and -- also for better or worse, whether intended or unintended -- the author has evolved into site host and moderator. And I think he's justifiably proud of his moderating ability -- I think his "racefail" postings were, to a great extent, an attempt to show LiveJournal how it should be done. And it kind of backfired on him, so he had to backpedal on his initial "taunts" of the "tauntable".<br /><br />So the site has become a community and the site host is a host in actuality as well as in name. He's law enforcement and judge and jury, just as you are here.<br /><br />And he owes his community whatever duties and obligations spring from those roles, which I would assert are primarily those of maintaining decorum and courtesy amongst the partygoers. <br /><br />Does he owe certain commenters any more than he owes others? Not if he's to be seen to be fair and impartial. At most, he owes the long-time commenters the benefit of the doubt, because they have proven themselves over time, whereas the newcomers still have a ways to go. (Just like me, here.)<br /><br />Much of your angst over last week's crapfest might come from feeling that <i>you would have done things differently</i> because of your background as a leader and your past role(s) in various communities. And perhaps because you didn't feel like you got the benefit of the doubt in the situation, which is what I think you deserved.<br /><br />Were the roles reversed, you would have done more than was done for you. <i>You</i> would have taken on the man-haters and defended the long-time poster, because that's who you are. But that's not the author. He doesn't have your background. <br /><br />Looking at the bigger picture, I would ask if any commenter is owed more than enforcement of common courtesy? Does a blog moderator or site host owe any higher duty to a long-term commenter? I would say no. The site host doesn't have a duty to watch your back because he has to watch the back of the community at large.Nick from the O.C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-28939744276758173932009-10-19T12:58:14.472-05:002009-10-19T12:58:14.472-05:00Eric isn't a problem.
It's his damned pyg...Eric isn't a problem.<br /><br />It's his damned pygmy marmosets that are a problem.Random Michelle Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817444379694818074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-56807630193539033882009-10-19T12:49:29.932-05:002009-10-19T12:49:29.932-05:00At some point, for those blogs which grow up and g...At some point, for those blogs which grow up and get lots of hits, there are far more lurkers than commenters. Those who do comment tend to comment on a regular basis -- it seems to be a threshold kind of thing.<br /><br />Once you get into a dialogue of sorts, and especially if you meet the blogger In Real Life, you do get a sense of friendship <i>slash</i> ownership, even if it is technically misguided.<br /><br />In the long run, this is likely to cause a problem. You go on too long or take something too far, someone nails you for something you didn't do, say or mean -- it's very much like the kind of conversations you have with buddies you hang with all the time. Except this time you have the electronic chasm emphasizing how distant you really are, hence why you feel hurt and betrayed.<br /><br />That said, the owner of a high volume blog has, IMHO, a certain obligation to see that his commenters aren't treated badly -- at least any high volume blog that I care to spend time with on a regular basis.<br /><br />So... mostly somewhat what Jim said. (grin)<br /><br />Dr. PhilDr. Phil (Physics)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11943336276878704753noreply@blogger.com