tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post7925253247948705136..comments2024-03-28T14:52:13.218-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Victory In Iraq And The Real Questions We Should Be AskingJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-52307903273563429672011-11-09T15:06:05.906-06:002011-11-09T15:06:05.906-06:00Jim, over the years, you've written a lot of t...Jim, over the years, you've written a lot of things I either enjoyed or was enlightened by, and some other stuff. <br /><br />But this may be the most cogent summing up of a large, messy issue I've read by you.<br /><br />Kudos.Thorvaldrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15879079073835564071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-58422387680819861572011-10-31T05:30:10.076-05:002011-10-31T05:30:10.076-05:00Jim, thanks again for another informative post tha...Jim, thanks again for another informative post that sparked interesting discussion, and thanks for providing the space for it.<br /><br />Re: Hanoi Jane bumper stickers - Me thinks fellows still obsessed with that young woman's misguided efforts all those decades ago probably need to get to those therapy sessions they avoided for far too long. They've <i>got</i> to have "issues" beyond Ms. Jane. (<;beemodernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17180046342466780318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-3548615293692944532011-10-31T05:05:11.672-05:002011-10-31T05:05:11.672-05:00Yes, invading Afghanistan was for defense, not rev...Yes, invading Afghanistan was for defense, not revenge. <br /><br />There were heated speeches right after 9/11, but that is always the case <i>right after</i> a tragedy. (My Dem senator lost my support after she gave an emotinal, war-mongering speech on the floor of Congress right after the attacks. I don't want leaders like that in emergencies.) Some Americans fooled into blaming Iraqis for 9/11 wanted revenge against them and some used the excuse of fear to seek revenge, but they were not representative of the entire country. Many wanted bin Laden hunted down only because they thought it was both just and a good defense measure. <br /><br />Anger is a secondary emotion following directly on the heels of an initial negative emotion such as disappointment, embarrassment, humiliation, sadness, grief, anxiety, and fear. Fear expressed angrily can look like revenge-seeking.<br /><br />After a steady diet of fear-mongering until we were polarized against <i>each other</i>, fear made people want to believe authorities and support whatever they deemed necessary. In fact, I know a few liberals who supported invading Iraq at first for that very reason. 9/11 and a mercenary presidential administration turned us into a nation of quivering, confused sheep.<br /><br />I was the last of my friends and relatives to reach a conclusion about Iraq because I supported a preemptive strike if there were weapons pointed at <i>my</i> children. With no interest in revenge, justice, or the "Are you saying we should be the world police?" argument, I was concerned only with whether we were in actual danger from WMD pointed at us and did not choose a side until I'd researched <i>everything</i> I could find. <br /><br />As soon as the White House floated the "invade Iraq" balloon, it was a given we were going to attack Iraq regardless of what was found to justify it. The Bush administration had already proved themselves to be brazenly uninterested in the people's democratic republic and their proper role in it. They'd disregarded our rights, public processes, and protections, actively undermining all of them from the first day they took office. They felt so safe they didn't even pretend they weren't doing those things. They just ignored all critics and ignored Congress' authority (to the bitter end). <br /><br />The Bush administration was merely preparing us for the action, making us used to it before it happened, not floating the balloon to test our support for the idea. It was clear they had their own agenda so it must have been my own fear that made me search hard before I accepted just how cynically low the Bush administration was willing to go. <br /><br />Lastly, it is true we are stretched too thin regarding military spending but other influences also contributed to ruining our once thriving economy. <br /><br />Add to military spending a broken (even corrupt in some ways) healthcare system with outrageous cost growth that far exceeds any other sector, thieving insurance companies, a predatory financial sector, jobs shipped overseas, stagnant and lowered wages, prisons and jails so full we can't build them fast enough, a huge transfer of the nation's wealth into a few hands, the nation's resources bleeding out to war profiteers, corporate welfare, corporate bail-outs, and international stockholders instead of using it on our own infrastructure/new technologies/education/job growth, and the middle-class paying a disproportionate share of taxes from their incomes to pay for <i>everything</i> and we find ourselves in the eye of a perfect financial and infrastructure meltdown storm.beemodernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17180046342466780318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-33008818763643203702011-10-30T20:28:28.127-05:002011-10-30T20:28:28.127-05:00Victory? Tough question no doubt. Try this one on ...Victory? Tough question no doubt. Try this one on for size:<br /><br />Victory is the awakening of We The People to the fact the incessant spending on wars overseas is the direct cause of our failing states and public services.<br /><br />At some point, we may realize that the cost is a generation of lost souls, uneducated children, and a public with little sympathy for its own. Only when this happens will be able to see past the obvious lies being promulgated by our leaders and force them to provide more butter and less guns.<br /><br />Until then, the ideologues will continue to rule at the beck and call of the oligarchs.Nick K. Aghazarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00645318005021298052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-69609006063485163802011-10-30T12:24:42.892-05:002011-10-30T12:24:42.892-05:00With regards to Afghanistan, it wasn't revenge...With regards to Afghanistan, it wasn't revenge, it was a clear cut case of extradition. They had someone who had plotted a devastating and cowardly attack on our civilians, and instead of handing him over, they defied the US and sheltered him. That was a dumb idea. We took decisive action and toppled the regime that would shelter those who attacked us. But like everything in the administration of Bush the lesser, we tried to do it too cheaply, and then we got distracted when we should have doubled our focus. Perhaps the problem is the limited amount of easily exploited resources in Afghanistan, but as soon as we had it licked, we turned away. If we had devoted the resources we wasted in Iraq, to finishing Afghanistan, every family could have been given a dozen goats, every major town could have seen a paved road and the poppy growers could have been given enough incentive and threat to choke off the heroin supply for the Taliban completely. There was a chance to change Afghanistan, if we didn't try to make it into a US territory, but just give it the ability to be Afghanistan.Stuartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-44198664118083170122011-10-30T01:31:17.966-05:002011-10-30T01:31:17.966-05:00Excellent piece, Jim. The present crop of rethug c...Excellent piece, Jim. The present crop of rethug candidates is beyond ludicrous, they have crossed into insane territory.amknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-3542839370291830062011-10-29T23:24:46.458-05:002011-10-29T23:24:46.458-05:00@Warner : "StevoR, this picture was taken wit...@Warner : "StevoR, this picture was taken within 40 miles on NYC."<br /><br />Yeah, I don't agree with that either but I will point out :<br /><br />1. That the Haredi woman living in NYC there has a lot more choices and opportunities to break out of that culture than the women in Afghanistan have. <br /><br />2. That Haredi women and her culture aren't going around violently imposing themselves on anybody else. Least not as far as I know. I certainly haven't heard of any Haredim being homicide-suicide bombers or preaching genocidal hatred of other ethnic groups or imposing the death penalty on everyone who disagrees with them and blowing up ancient treasures and icons of other religions like the Taliban did.<br /><br />@Eric : "StevoR: I know your questions were for Jim, but let me take a few stabs at them." <br /><br />Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Sorry its taken me awhile to check up here again, been busy thees last few days.<br /><br />I'd still love to see Jim Wright's thoughts on the issues I've raised too.StevoRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-1737911743063609062011-10-29T21:58:10.087-05:002011-10-29T21:58:10.087-05:00The country did not support war for revenge, but b...<i>The country did not support war for revenge, but because it was made hysterical with fear and defensiveness. In the U.S., a national desire for revenge is short-lived once things settle down and daily life takes its toll. We just aren't a nation with a long memory</i><br /><br />@Beemodern, after the war started, those of us in the war zone started getting letters from the folks back home. One day we got a box of letters from a six grade class somewhere in Oklahoma. Allow me to quote one of those letters:<br /><br /><i>Roses are red, violets are blue, kill a couple of ragheads for me too </i>.<br /><br />Here's another quote, this time from a bumper sticker that I see several times a week on the Glenn Highway:<br /><br /><i>Hanoi Jane. We will never forget.</i>Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-86641016753234907312011-10-29T20:52:47.608-05:002011-10-29T20:52:47.608-05:00Part two:
BadTux is correct about nation building...Part two:<br /><br />BadTux is correct about nation building. People at the local level will eventually determine their own lives, one way or another. That's true of cities and neighborhoods in the states, and of countries around the world. <br /><br />Well intended do-gooders never seem to learn that helping is great but can be truly successful only when they don't dictate what that help is or how it is used. The people they are serving must make those decisions or ultimately the result is failure. (Then the recipients of the help-with-strings-attached are blamed for the failures.)<br /><br />The reference to the Soviet Union's demise is right on target. We will bankrupt ourselves like they did if we continue to allow our military resources and people to be used to enrich the "1%" and for jobs programs for certain legislators. <br /><br />War for profit; continuing our dependence on oil instead of investing in cheap, clean, renewable energy sources as well as clean, efficient technologies and local renewable resources; and keeping weapons systems in the federal budget that the military doesn't even want or won't use merely to keep the same jobs in certain states is bleeding us dry and forcing us to unnecessarily sacrifice Americans we send to fight the surreptitious and open battles. <br /><br />Minds need to start thinking out of the box and ahead, or be voted out of office.<br /><br />Sorry to be so wordy Jim. Just no time to go back and cut this down. I won't even get started on the TSA! (<;beemodernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17180046342466780318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-70144684726154202852011-10-29T20:41:21.844-05:002011-10-29T20:41:21.844-05:00Thank you, Jim, once again!
Some responses to var...Thank you, Jim, once again!<br /><br />Some responses to various: <br /><br /><i>The people</i> are not really responsible for two reasons. <br /><br />First, It is much harder to be well-informed when a propaganda campaign is in full-swing. Most people just aren’t that curious, intelligent, or tenacious and most believed their elected officials. If they didn't, they believed Colin Powell.<br /><br />Second, the people did <i>not</i> reelect the Bush administration. Both elections were "won" through fraud and voter disenfranchisement. <br /><br />The country did not support war for revenge, but because it was made hysterical with fear and defensiveness. In the U.S., a national desire for revenge is short-lived once things settle down and daily life takes its toll. We just aren't a nation with a long memory. We are a forward-looking nation, which isn't necessarily always a good thing but it is us nevertheless. Fear, though, creates rage, irrationality, and lynch mobs. That's why we had a continual diet of fear-mongering fed to us.<br /><br />The Neocons did have a clear vision. Their goal was the one Eric described: <i>Pax Americana</i>. Invading Iraq was to give us a <i>permanent</i> military base right next to Iran and we would not be "guests" because we would control the country. Additional benefits were mucho bucks for private contractors and all that Iraqi oil. Win! Win!<br /><br />To protect U.S. corporate interests we used secret intelligence and training units to help puppet governments terrorize and hurt locals. There is no such thing as corporate America anymore. Now they are mega international corporations so powerful they don't need our military resources to hijack countries, including our own. <br /><br />We stopped using our “secret” forces to protect obvious corporate interests and switched to indulging anticommunist ideologies, but we aren’t afraid of communism since we spent the Soviet Union into the ground. Are we still engaging in the same games via our “war on terror,” but for international wallets this time?<br /><br />The Taliban was brutalizing and suppressing women before 9/11, so what changed for us?<br /><br />The Taliban was back in control of most of Afghanistan in quick time. We've only controlled its political center. Outside the big city, villagers were back to answering to the Taliban. Our being there or leaving doesn't seem to make a huge or long-term difference. We didn't listen to Charlie Wilson and that boat’s sailed.<br /><br />Saddam posed no danger to us because we'd cut him off and he was also old and sick, hence, his days were numbered. I doubt his sons would have lasted long without him because they were hated too and had less common sense. Once in charge, they would have been offed in short-order from within. <br /><br />Japanese military expansionists prepared for undoing the relatively new attachment to a parliamentary system by using school curriculum to glorify past and future military achievements and promoting Japanese racial superiority, readying the country for conquering in the name of their emperor. By the time Japan was razing the rest of Asia, the emperor had their civil-government cultural loyalty. It was also the authority rendered impotent by Japanese military leadership once they were entrenched in war with us.<br /><br />Germany really had very little experience with democracy, which made it easy to undo in short-order.<br /><br />Still, because there was <i>some</i> experience with democracy in both countries, they were different from these countries we think we can turn into clones of us. Plus, many Americans were of German descent. Our two cultures weren't so vastly different that our perceptions of the world were entirely alien concepts.<br /><br />Japan resented us deeply for “humiliating” them after their surrender. Because Americans had no real knowledge of Japanese culture or the internal battles among its leadership factions, they had no way of knowing anything other than the Japanese were to be feared and deserved nothing but unconditional surrender.beemodernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17180046342466780318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-29579899390985594292011-10-28T19:48:17.096-05:002011-10-28T19:48:17.096-05:00Finally, someone who gets "it" and not o...Finally, someone who gets "it" and not only that, but is willing to say it openly and publicly. THANK YOU! I will be sharing this on my Facebook page. Keep up the good work! I love this blog.In the Kitchen With Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02684082081383552666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-23658724037171922502011-10-28T10:45:45.139-05:002011-10-28T10:45:45.139-05:00First let me say thank-you to you and all of the b...First let me say thank-you to you and all of the brave military men and women who put their lives on the line for all citizens of this great country. Your recount of the events do put things into perspective for me by someone who was there. What I can not get past is there is no mention of "who gets control of the oil". I think that the powers of influence (the real "people" Corporations) behind our government had and still have that objective in mind. $$$$$ I feel our men and women who serve have been put unjustly in harms way for that reason only. War is about control. I hate it.<br />Please do not take this personally I am so grateful for your service I just want all this BS to stop and bring our troops home!art-n-musicmomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-53851542556386280242011-10-27T22:06:10.695-05:002011-10-27T22:06:10.695-05:00Great piece - as usual, I found myself nodding in ...Great piece - as usual, I found myself nodding in agreement with you as I read. Winning ain't never gonna look like it used to. Unfortunately as long as our foreign policy continues to be carried out as an empirical order that seeks authority and dominance (coupled with those nifty little no-bid government contracts that benefit the lucky 1%), I'm afraid we're going to continue to be there in some capacity. If they start bringing those folks home at all, and start giving our servicemen and women some of the care they're gonna need, then that'll be a win enough for me.Groovybeanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13795184873766343786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-86781643455350682442011-10-27T20:53:15.997-05:002011-10-27T20:53:15.997-05:00I don't mean to hog your blog, Jim, but I'...I don't mean to hog your blog, Jim, but I'm running out of time and your fans need to know who we are and where we came from.<br />Before there were Crypto techs and Operation Specialists in the navy, there were Radiomen who had special talents.<br />Before there were "Teams" and "Special Forces", there were offices in the military that recognised talents in some of there men.<br />They sent these men orders to duty that was outside their normal ratings and those men went.<br />I was told that our reciever transmitters, dropped on the Ho Chi trail, didn't work and "by God you guys are going to find out why."<br />We did! Kids. North Vietnamese kids ran along, died sometimes, and disabled our tech.<br />Later Jim belonged to a "TEAM" that was a direct result of our lessons learned in Vietnam.<br />The lesson we learned and the knowledge that Jim and our current "Teams" have is that we do what we have to do, but we don't necessarily agree.<br />We Are The Greatest and someday our country will understand that protecting America and keeping America IN America is the best that we can do.MCPO Retnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-51408555260016288562011-10-27T19:43:27.469-05:002011-10-27T19:43:27.469-05:00It's hard enough making Americans out of Texan...<i>It's hard enough making Americans out of Texans.</i><br /><br />And that's going to win the internet for today. Well done, Master Chief.Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-43052520216461594722011-10-27T19:39:03.540-05:002011-10-27T19:39:03.540-05:00We must remember, or learn, that we are making the...We must remember, or learn, that we are making the same mistake that the Soviets made in Afganistan.<br />The Soviets tried to mold Afganiis into Socialist. They forced women to go to coed schools to make them Communists.<br />Reagan and Bill Casey hated Russia so much that they truly believed Mohammed and the Pope could defeat Communism in Afganistan.<br />We armed the Islamist in Chechnea.<br />True!<br />But, we are doing our dead level best to dig ourselves into the Russian grave.<br />We just need to leave.<br />If there is a problem, we can blow the bastards off the face of the earth, but we should not try and make Americans out of Afganiis, or Pakistaniis, or anybody else.<br />It's hard enough making Americans out of Texans. <br />And I am one.MCPO Retnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-82634912025382310202011-10-27T14:07:35.551-05:002011-10-27T14:07:35.551-05:00Steve Buchheit said...
"Victory, to be able ...Steve Buchheit said...<br /><br />"Victory, to be able to walk out, facing forward, and not get shot in the ass. It's a working concept."<br /><br />Totally agree, applies to Afghanistan as well. But since Iraq was a planning topic long before 9/11, let's not lose sight of the reasons we went into Irag:<br /><br />1. Poppy whupped ol' Saddam fair 'n' square, but he wouldn't take it like a man 'n' tried to git Poppy.<br /><br />2. If'n we beat up on them Eye-rackies, then we'll show them North Ko-reans they shouldn't mess with us.<br /><br />3. "Oil is too important to be left to the Arabs" - H. Kissinger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-4718585407325359352011-10-27T12:14:47.259-05:002011-10-27T12:14:47.259-05:00I wonder what Charlie Wilson would say about the &...I wonder what Charlie Wilson would say about the "end games" in Iraq and Afghanistan?Nick from the O.C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-14922051832468618832011-10-27T11:40:47.768-05:002011-10-27T11:40:47.768-05:00I think it is funny and sad and ironic that people...I think it is funny and sad and ironic that people think that peace is the world's norm. It isn't. Even if we want peace, there are countries and groups out there that do not. <br /><br />If Iraq and Afghanistan did nothing else, they certainly pulled those who hate us into one place where we could get at them. They also let us know (confirmed suspicions, really) about bigger problems on the horizon: Iran, Saudi Arabia, China.<br /><br />And let us not talk of North Korea, since Kim Jong Il is even better at brinksmanship than Saddam Hussein was.<br /><br />If only for a little bit.Wine Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-58216780087311846032011-10-26T22:44:05.333-05:002011-10-26T22:44:05.333-05:00What about the personalities involved in post WWII...What about the personalities involved in post WWII Germany and Japan?<br />Look at MacArthur, He and Roosevelt were political enemies. FDR considered MacArthur to be one of the two most dangerous men in the country. <br />Nevertheless, FDR kept MacArthur on as Army Chief-of-Staff, the boss of the Army, for an extra year. <br />FDR ordered MacArthur to implement the CCC, Civilian Conservation Corps, a program MacArthur detested. MacArthur obeyed orders and organized the CCC to the best of his ability.<br />Later, when MacArthur occupied Japan, he disobeyed orders to not distribute excess rations to hungry Japanese.<br />He is credited with saving millions of lives. <br />Consider Marshall, <br />a man of enormous integrity. During WWII he was Army Chief-of Staff. After the war he became Secretary of State. The administration wanted a bill to rebuild Europe. A tough fight led to What became known as the Marshall Plan. Europe and Japan rebuilt. We are allied with some of the world's economic juggernauts because of actions taken after the fighting by those folks.<br />Win,lose or draw life goes on. Does the end of a war lead to peace? What happens in the peace? <br />What will we do?John Healyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03618374685709266085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-52757125272202902432011-10-26T21:54:11.399-05:002011-10-26T21:54:11.399-05:00Works for meWorks for meJim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-31465190239835978872011-10-26T21:52:42.447-05:002011-10-26T21:52:42.447-05:00Victory, to be able to walk out, facing forward, a...Victory, to be able to walk out, facing forward, and not get shot in the ass. It's a working concept.Steve Buchheithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12999709767641212586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-74241365045532300822011-10-26T17:11:37.537-05:002011-10-26T17:11:37.537-05:00Thing is, Germany and Japan both had democratic tr...Thing is, Germany and Japan both had democratic traditions to fall back on, remember that Japan had modeled itself originally after Britain (a parliamentary democracy) before Tojo's military junta took over, and Germany had been a parliamentary democracy since the 1870's before Hitler took power. The U.S. did not so much re-make those nations as restore the prior governments. That's completely different from trying to create democracy where none has ever existed before.BadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-4911165408866150222011-10-26T16:56:30.019-05:002011-10-26T16:56:30.019-05:00@BadTux,
Without getting into just how much conti...@BadTux,<br /><br />Without getting into just how much continued military involvement is necessary, I'd say Post WWII Germany and Japan are brilliant examples of what's possible in the realm of nation building. Two cultures utterly different from each other and from ours transformed into two of our most important allies.<br /><br />Unfortunately, we seem to be somewhat short on Gen. Marshall's these days.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648438549121320566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-64303562202945870542011-10-26T14:25:05.326-05:002011-10-26T14:25:05.326-05:00The whole question of, "What is victory?"...The whole question of, "What is victory?" completely baffled me. I suppose "Saddam and his sons all captured or dead" is as good a definition as any, which means that the war was over in December 2003 when Saddam was captured and his sons were killed. Why did we stay after that? Because Dear Leader looked at daddy and said, "Your mistake was winning your war", and then moved the goal posts so that the war would still be going on in November 2004. That's why. <br /><br />The war in Iraq was over in December 2003. Our troops have been fighting and dying for no good reason ever since. Why is that so hard a concept for people to understand?<br /><br />Regarding the notions of nation building and such, utter nonsense. People are going to rule themselves however they want to be ruled. Military power is capable of going in and destroying any government that decides to do nasty things that threaten the USA, but creating a new government from scratch for a foreign culture and installing it at gunpoint then expecting it to survive by itself without massive military intervention has never, ever worked in any nation, ever. Just ask Nguyen Van Thieu. Oh wait...BadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.com