Comments on Stonekettle Station: Occupy Stonekettle Station, The Follow Up

I know I'm very late to this party, but I only...

2011-11-28T04:25:17.713-09:00

I know I'm very late to this party, but I only found your blog recently. And if you knew me personally, you'd find a Guy Fawkes mask as my photo on Facebook. As a guy with a C in front of his title, I understand the system far more than most people.

And a funny thing happened. I expected to (politely) disagree with you about OWS, but I didn't. My only thought is that the Tea Party is the gift that keeps on giving for comedy and abject horror, but my OWS view is a bit more nuanced. I agree they are the same coin.

I think the issue is that of powerlessness or the feeling of it. I agree that the phrase for the next election should be "it's the vote, stupid" but that's where the nuance comes in. With corporations as people, money that would float the current debt of the entire European project, and the Fox disinformation machine the feeling is one of helplessness and that's why OWS doesn't have a clear message. Just a clear sense of hopelessness. It's about a lot of things but mostly about a "hard to articulate in a pithy sound bite" idea that regular people are losing power. And you're right. That's when generally things degenerate into people getting dragged from their penthouse offices and hung on the street. Just ask the Bourbons or the Romanov's about what happens when the peasants don't get their share.

I mean, even Warren Buffet here sympathizes with the movement. Trust me old Warren isn't about to give them his money, he just realizes that if he pays a billion or so more in taxes the peasants won't drag HIM out of his office. If I had my way too, enlightened despotism is the way to go. Or at least enlightened self interest. But most of the modern robber barons don't seem to have enough sense to embrace that.

It's hard for me to just say "vote" when the people of Wisconsin did, and the people of Alabama did and one produced laws that were detrimental to most common people (that'll learn you to listen to the Tea Party right there!) and the other was hateful to (illegal) immigrants. You know, the ones actually doing all the hard, backbreaking work that now is ruining said businesses in the state as their crops rot and their hotels go uncleaned. So I wonder out loud if the current educational system combined with Fox News has dumbed down everyone so much the majority may actually be incapable of connecting the dots to the best future and voting has become something of a joke. I have the luxury of living in MA where this is probably not true as we're, on the majority, pretty much on the progressive side, except for those Mormons who seem to be invading in droves which I don't understand. Or maybe I do because we actually have some of the best schools, but that's a subject for another comment.

So while I agree with you on OWS in the main, I think "vote" is perhaps a bit overly facile and there is a deeper problem that goes unspoken because the question raises a very "un-American" discussion and that is, are the majority of people now too stupid and misinformed to understand how government works and vote accordingly? Is the propaganda working? The very fact that people want creationism taught should be a mind-blowing fact, how come it isn't? Why do we accept this and not tell them to go teach in it their religious schools but the public schools are secular and bang the gavel? And when these people are a majority (ahem, Kansas, Texas in places), what happens then when the Supreme Court doesn't write an opinion of two words, "fu&k off"? I tell you what; pitchforks and fire.

Jim, I read your original OWS posting and thought ...

2011-11-21T07:51:18.177-09:00

Jim,
I read your original OWS posting and thought it was mild in comparisson to your usual posts. I wonder whether people's reactions were due to cumulative stress of much more vitriolc criticisms in mainstream media both right and left.
While i enjoy many of your more colorful pieces, the OWS piece centered me. Thanks!

I'm giving some consideration to changing my n...

2011-11-17T09:18:03.500-09:00

I'm giving some consideration to changing my name to Mr. Toadie of Toadie Hall.
If I were as prolific as Jim, I'd go with J. Ranty McScreed.
This blog, and 90% of the commentors are about discussion. Give and take. A little snarkyness around the edges on bad days.
Jim, I salute you for cultivating this kind of loonyism.

You'll note, Anonymous, that in the lead-in pa...

2011-11-16T18:34:30.593-09:00

You'll note, Anonymous, that in the lead-in paragraph to the previous post I said specifically that I expected readers to disagree, and then in the lead-in to this post I said that "as expected" I pissed readers off. So no, Anonymous, I wasn't in any way surprised. But hey, I'm sure the rest of your pithy ad hominem tu quoque was right on the money.

Maybe you can clear up a couple of things up for me:

1) Given that you appear to agree with what I wrote in this post, but I'm still wrong, I hazard a guess that you're a Rand Paul supporter?

2) You think I'm either stupid and/or shallow, and you imply that in your opinion at least 90% of my readers are the kind of loons you contemptuously despise, correct? Then why do you keep coming back here? Seriously? Do you actually think your snide little asides, sophomoric personal attacks, and Tea Party command of the English language will actually change my outlook on the world?

3) Is it still poetic justice if I expected the response I got? And, in point of fact, said that I wrote the post expecting exactly that response from my "Toadies?"

Here's an idea, Anonymous, start your own blog. Given your rather obvious lack of interpersonal skills, I'd be curious as to how you deal with persistent anonymous trolls like yourself - that is if anybody bothered to read what you wrote.

Talk about poetic justice. Guys like you cultivat...

2011-11-16T16:18:18.320-09:00

Talk about poetic justice.

Guys like you cultivate these kind of loons camping out at OWS. You're just not smart enough to recognize it yet, or perhaps you're just that shallow.

90% of your audience is an offshoot of these loons.

Why you're surprised when you show a moment of lucidity, and then the toadies rebel in your writing?

Come on...

John Healy's comments: That's usually the ...

2011-11-15T14:49:03.733-09:00

John Healy's comments: That's usually the trigger for violence when people are demonstrating—authority’s need to force submission instead of just waiting it out. Police in riot gear surrounding demonstrators despite no rioting creates a sense of danger. When police are overtly intimidating or aggressive, it escalates.

I don't know when people in authority, and those of us who support them, will ever learn that for most people, negative consequences do not encourage desired behaviors and outcomes.

Last night the OWS movement got a big boost when t...

2011-11-15T10:00:35.748-09:00

Last night the OWS movement got a big boost when the NYPD moved in at 1AM to evict them from the park. The Press was barred from this, ostensibly to protect them.
The protesters were told "You can come back if you don't bring tents."
The Establishment (OMG, I used that word) will regret these transparent tactics. If they waited until New Years, when the Occupiers have said they would depart, the whole thing might have blown over. If Tony Baloney hadn't pepper-sprayed those ladies, Occupy might already have died out. Thanks for the arrogance.

1) I have a great deal of faith in our beloved nat...

2011-11-12T16:16:13.952-09:00

1) I have a great deal of faith in our beloved nation
2) I vote all the time, since I came of voting age pre Jimmy Carter
3) OWS is a baby in a crib, it's got a long way to go and many obstacles (not the least is FUX Nooze)
4) You don't loose readers cause they disagree with you, you loose them cause they are lefties and as such (as a long time Democratic activist) they are the non herding cats
Keep up your lengthy but spot on or almost spot on commentary,
I won't leave you cause we disagree, as whatever we disagree on is because we care about OUR Country and want it to prosper
All the Best.
Tom

Jim - your blog rocks. If I may add my 2 cents.. ...

2011-11-11T12:02:39.793-09:00

Jim - your blog rocks. If I may add my 2 cents..

I watch OWS and the early Tea-Party (when it was just mad about TARP, pre-Koch) with glee because it has started a conversation. The frustrations are the same, it’s just OWS’s ire is mostly directed at the government bribers and the Tea Party’s focus was the corrupt aspects of government – there is a Venn diagram connection there. I don’t join with my feet though; I did WTO protests in Seattle ten years ago with a specific beef about food security in the U.S. and developing nations (I’m not anti-capitalism). The WTO protest was effective in afflicting the most comfortable in our society for a week, but there is a very uncomfortable push that occurs in the streets eventually between protesters and the police during these events. It is like a mob, it often escalates to violence on both sides, both the police and the protesters get stereotyped and in the end both lose face to the greater public.

So if you don’t protest, you’re right - voting is great. But getting elected officials to follow the will of the people (see TARP) after being voted in is difficult. This is because they need to keep that GDP up, otherwise it looks like the system isn’t working. They keep it up by pumping tax money into failing financial institutions, they pump incentives into an over-inflated housing market, they inflate the education system (college college college mantra), etc.

So what to do? I think if you are pissed about the system, try to de-couple yourself from the system, specifically the debt system ala: http://www.oftwominds.com/blogoct11/notes-on-OWS10-11.html
Instead of following organized labor’s lead, let’s follow gay rights activists lead and set up supportive, local communities that say f-you, we don’t need you, we don’t need your loans to live our life. We reject that the only way to live is by keeping up with the Joneses and pretending like we don’t have debt. Setting up this sort of community while working on the legislative aspects of curtailing corruption is the sustainable way to go. It feels really good too!

quick pop in here, 11/11/11/, to say Thank you for...

2011-11-11T03:49:42.481-09:00

quick pop in here, 11/11/11/, to say Thank you for your service.

I first registered and voted in 1960. I am of the ...

2011-11-10T08:52:04.453-09:00

I first registered and voted in 1960. I am of the opinion that the only means of helping ourselves to help tose in government to change our fortunes is to vote. At present, there is an on-line petition to enact a Constitutional Amendment to correct the Citizens United ruling. This move will never come to fruition becasue thse who caused the horrendous (IMHO) to be rendered will not allow an Amendment to hit the floor or to pass Congress. Only when these Congresspersons are voted out, repeatedly, will the elected officeholders recognize they must represent ALL the people and that corpoartions are not people, do not vote and are not answerable to anyone.
You are correct, these young people must vote and effect change. I continue to hear about term limits. That ain't gonna happen either, Congress and SCOTUS control that, only through the ballot box can effective change be made.

I know I'm a little late to the party here and...

2011-11-09T12:18:53.603-09:00

I know I'm a little late to the party here and wasn't sure whether to comment on this blog or the previous one.

First, Jim, while I may not agree with everything you've written in the two OWS blogs (a first by the way), I do respect your opinions and can see where you are coming from.

I do agree with you that the OWS movement has the appearance of a mob, the key reason being the lack of defined leadership. Even the Tea Party has Glen Beck and Michellle Bachman, as bat shit crazy as they are. I do believe a more defined structure and demands from the movement would go a long way towards respectability for the movement.

As for the violence, I'm torn. As I was reading the first blog, I immediately thought of the quote from Asimov that Eric shared. I am a huge fan of Asimov, but I disagree with both of you on this one. If life was a sci-fi novel, then I'm sure there would be a nice, neat way out of this Seldon Crisis. But the truth of the matter is, there isn't. As you have stated, the gap between the haves and the have-nots is still growing, and as long as it continues to grow the end result will be violence.

I do applaud you for suggesting a solution (which is one thing that I have not heard from the OWS movement) in advocating voting. Unfortunately, I see this as an idealistic idea that just does not work in reality. It would be great if everyone voted. It would be great if the people who were elected actually acted in the best interest of the country and it's people. It just isn't that way. I know others have harped on the "throwing your vote away" argument, so I won't go there. My issue with voting is that even if you do get a good guy or gal in office, the political machine won't allow them to do what is best for "the little guy". Between having to vote along party lines if you want help in getting re-elected and lobbyists throwing money at elected officials, nothing can actually get accomplished for the greater good. And that just isn't going to change, because the ones who can create the laws to make those changes are the ones benefitting from them not changing it.

Perhaps violence isn't the answer, but (and I'm sorry to disagree, Jim) neither is voting. So, what are the alternatives?

-Richard

To those repeating the "no choice" stuff...

2011-11-09T09:39:08.007-09:00

To those repeating the "no choice" stuff: If voting is such a useless act, why are Republicans so desperate to keep people from voting?

And for those arguing for a third party: Math in a first-past-the-post electoral system is that it takes 50% + 1 votes to guarantee that your candidate wins. What that means is that the only way to guarantee that your candidate gets 50%+1 is to build a coalition of what would be smaller parties whose total share of the vote would be 50%+1 in a proportional representation system and, since we don't have a proportional representation system, run a single candidate for this coalition party. We have such a coalition party -- it's called the Democratic Party. Well, there's also another coalition of what would be smaller parties in a proportional representation system, called the Republican Party, but given that it appears to now be a coalition of various batshit crazy people, well. Let them have their own party, and concentrate on the primaries and getting *your* candidate selected as the candidate for the Democratic coalition.

And for those who point to the Republican party in 1852, the Republican party basically happened because the Whig party disintegrated due to the slavery issue. Southern Whigs became Democrats, northern Whigs became Republicans (and a large percentage of northern Democrats became Republicans too, again due to the slavery issue). In short, the Republican party was not a "third party" after 1852, it was one of the two major parties -- the Whigs basically ceased to exist. You may rail about the laws of mathematics that over time mean third parties end up merging into one of the two major coalition parties if they wish to influence national politics, but math is math, and cares not about your opinion.

- Badtux the Numbers Penguin

Yes, it seems to me this morning that Maine, Ohio,...

2011-11-09T09:19:15.130-09:00

Yes, it seems to me this morning that Maine, Ohio, Mississippi, and a number of other elections across the nation would tend to indicate that democracy is alive and well here in the United States of America. When enough people vote, even the Koch Brothers can be defeated - as Ohio demonstrates. I stand by my comments in the original post. Vote.

There's a headline in Ohio claiming a twenty-y...

2011-11-09T08:48:49.949-09:00

There's a headline in Ohio claiming a twenty-year high election turnout. Of course we had issue 2, the screw unions Y/N issue. It went down in flames, 61% no. Ohio did vote to opt out of Obamacare (issue 3). Not that opting out will survive the courts.
I wanted to vote for polar bear steak, but it wasn't on the ballot.
I'm guessing that people who read and comment on blogs such as this are voters. The ones who hang on every Kardshian gyration are the ones who won't bother with the ballot box.

Although it was only a school board election, I wa...

2011-11-09T06:36:31.156-09:00

Although it was only a school board election, I was surprised at how low the voter turnout was yesterday. I voted at 6:30pm and was only around the 200th voter.

I keep hoping this OWS stuff will motivate people to get to the polls especially when it comes to the more important elections in 2012.

People need to remember that whenever they don't vote, they are in effect voting for whomever wins the election.

I don't comment very much at all and I surely ...

2011-11-09T05:01:49.392-09:00

I don't comment very much at all and I surely won't be running off due to any disagreement, but I thought this was worth noting.

I voted yesterday. Historically, I refused to, but when Bush II was elected, I found I was no longer able to justify this position and I have been to every election since that time. I can at least credit him with getting me into the booth.

Yesterday, our elections were all local stuff - nothing of note really. Save one small thing.

My ballots have something like 5 parties on them - Rep and Dem at the top, Working Family, Independent and Conservative. It is common to see the same name on a few lines.

I opened my ballot - the first choice (of two) for State Supreme Court Justice had the SAME NAME on every line. This guy was apparently a Republican, a Democrat, A Conservative but for Working Families, and also, just to be sure, Independent.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Yes, there was a second position and the second one had different names, but in one case, how is that a "choice"?

Don't know if it will change over time, but here is an image: http://www.orangecountygov.com/filestorage/124/126/1210/554/NEW_WINDSOR_11th_LD.pdf

BTW: I left that selection un-voted-for. Did I have a choice???

Oh - keep up the good work. I don't care if we disagree. Frankly, I am not certain we do, but I am new around here.

JC

Jim, I agreed with a number of things in your Occ...

2011-11-08T21:03:20.776-09:00

Jim,

I agreed with a number of things in your Occupy Article, but there were some things were we parted ways a bit. I work about a block away and a few floors up from Frank Ogawa plaza, and have taken a walk through there, both day and night to see things for myself. I saw a lot of what you wrote about, and a few things that I think you missed on. I didn't reply because it seemed like my agreements and disagreements were already being covered by other commenters.

I enjoy reading your stuff, even if you use too many words (just like a frickin' officer). You make people think. You provide a viewpoint that both affirms what a lot of us in the military think, and shocks those on the "outside" who think military folks only think/react one way. Your blog is a good way to show everyone that, just because we wore a uniform for a while, we didn't check our brains at the door.

Well...at least not after the FIRST time we volunteered for something...

You don't need me to say, but keep doing your thing, your way. You'll gain and keep more readers than you'll lose.

Recently, two families got together in the O.C. O...

2011-11-08T13:43:55.832-09:00

Recently, two families got together in the O.C. One family had three children (13, 12, 8) and both parents worked; they had a nice house and a live-in au pair to help out. The other family had two children (10 and 4) and one parent worked two jobs while the other stayed home to take care of the household. Both families were doing well financially and the kids were thriving.

Yet while the kids played together, the parents discussed their mutual concern: both families realized that their kids were not going to have the same economic opportunities as they had had. The kids were very likely to go to college and might even get stable jobs with benefits; yet their futures were much less bright than the parents had had at this same time in their lives.

What to do? We agreed to keep on keeping on, to keep on raising our kids the best we could, knowing that their lives were going to be much harder than ours. But we all agreed that we hoped and prayed that the situation would change.

And we are the lucky ones. There are plenty of people, some of whom we know well, who are not doing well financially and whose kids are not thriving. What hope do they have for a better future for their kids?

Therein lies the source for some of the OWS outrage. I get it, though I don't participate.

I worry that Anonymous November 7, 2011 4:41 AM mi...

2011-11-08T13:24:05.597-09:00

I worry that Anonymous November 7, 2011 4:41 AM might be right. I don't see how he or she can be wrong, ultimately, until the public forces government to pass and uphold serious elections-funding reform, cleans up the voting systems in every state to keep the outcomes honest, severely limits corporate access to legislators, stops the practice of corporate lackeys writing legislation themselves, and enforces truth and fairness over the public airwaves now used as propaganda machines (we're starting to resemble Italy just a little too much for me). Without those, I'm hoping there is another answer, but I don't see it yet.

Voting does count, because if enough people vote the attempts to manipulate elections are less likely to succeed.

So many readers are contributing valuable food for thought. I love it when Jim's posts trigger such thoughtful discussion among thinking people with differing perspectives on goals/outcomes they agree on.

It would help OWS if it were not still mostly a spontaneous response from frustrated young people, but had older, experienced people helping them. The Freedom Riders did have that (though some were still brutalized, and murdered). Martin Luther King Jr.'s presence and the constant vigilance of his trusted colleagues working with him prevented armed and rightfully angry young men at the marches from erupting in violence when they were attacked. It took concerted effort, mentoring, and steady, understanding, sympathetic support to keep all of those young people completely peaceful while under attack, but it worked when the cameras and TV stations provided the images to the rest of the country.

OWS was started by a generation whose elders have pretty much abandoned the role of actually mentoring any young people other than the ones we raise in our own homes, and too many of us don't even do that much. We sure as heck don't care much for worrying about or focusing time and attention on other people's youth. Baby-boomers, as a generation (not all, but in general) have expected to just pay other people to provide what our children need just like we prefer to donate to causes rather than join organizations. So what we have here are young people trying, but without the benefit of experienced elders they trust, and who treat them so respectfully, they will follow their lead. The young leading the young and doing their best, and at this point, very leery of anyone who claims "leadership."

I'm sorry Jim. You've personalized my comm...

2011-11-08T12:27:23.245-09:00

I'm sorry Jim. You've personalized my comments to being directed only at you and your posts, but they weren't.

I did not, nor would I ever say you should just shut up, not ever! I don't think you'll find it in my posts either, if you read them without projecting.

I was questioning what OWS is criticized for, not whether they should be free of any criticisms at all. I thought this was a safe place for open debate.

This is what it's come to, even between like-minded thinkers. It's disappointing, but it's your blog. I will stop.

Why tell OWS what their agenda should be? ...

2011-11-08T12:01:55.604-09:00

Why tell OWS what their agenda should be?

Ah, I see. In this new OWS America, people like me will just get told to shut up and go along for the ride, is that about Right?

On the bright side, that's something else OWS and the Tea Party have in common.

If our election system is broken (it is, as others have described) and you believe that is the most important issue at hand, start your own movement!

I started a blog instead.

And I didn't say that was the most important issue at hand, the Occupiers did. The commenters here did, including you.

I just don't get the armchair quarterbacking of one started by others out of their own desperation for what they were facing in the moment they decided to go forward.

I note that you were perfectly fine with me offering a critical opinion on the Tea Party, or conservative politicians, or cats. As I said in the post, if you expect me to blow rainbow flavored smoke up your ass all of the time, you're in the wrong place.

@beemodern, you're putting me in an awkward position, you know why. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.

Pangolin, LOL! You rock. Janiece, I get it too. M...

2011-11-08T11:45:09.035-09:00

Pangolin, LOL! You rock.

Janiece, I get it too. My 30-year-old, college-educated daughter living with her college- educated man, both working long hours at full time jobs (and she's worked since she was 15-years-old) cannot afford their own home or to marry and have a child. They are worried. It is the same for my son who works long hours for less and he's worked since he was 18. He and his girlfriend see no future beyond the working poor at this point. We did what we were supposed to do and raised intelligent, contributing citizens.
They did what they were supposed to do, but this is what they inherit? Their entire generation is facing this, and they are the luckier ones!

Since Badtux mentioned Ayn Rand, I have to post th...

2011-11-08T11:42:08.868-09:00

Since Badtux mentioned Ayn Rand, I have to post this quote, attributed to one John Rogers:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Jim says that voting is where it starts, but he do...

2011-11-08T11:30:07.116-09:00

Jim says that voting is where it starts, but he doesn't say that's where it stops. If your gal isn't on the ballot, it's because you didn't put her there. If your guy isn't known, who will vote for him?

We have seen that voting can make a difference. 2008 was a clear sign that voting works. What is it about the last 3 years that causes so many people to throw up their hands and say, "Voting doesn't work! It's time for violence."

We voted President Obama in, then expected him to do all the rest. We relaxed, sat back satisfied in our collective recliners, and let the other side vote back. Now the Republicans have enough representatives to be able to stifle further change. We need to counter that. Lets take back the House, and start passing limits on corporate political contributions. Lets pass Bush tax cut repeals. Lets put regulations back in force. Lets get rid of personhood for corporations. Lets undo the things that have gotten us where we are, from where we were. It shouldn't be too hard. Just see what's been done the last 10 years, and undo it.

Unfortunately, in order to repeal and regulate we have to fight against the massive monetary political power that has been unleashed in the last 10 years, but if we can get enough of the 99% to vote for a return to reason, we have a chance. For real change, we might have to put it in reverse and back up a bit, but then we can put it into drive, and go a much better direction.