tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post6940320996387127847..comments2024-03-17T08:27:53.658-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Into the Valley of DeathJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-66706985387194942502012-10-16T15:09:24.300-05:002012-10-16T15:09:24.300-05:00"If you actually think that sending politicia..."If you actually think that sending politicians’ families into to war would actually change how we wage war – especially for the better – then you are an idiot. John McCain’s father, Admiral John S. McCain was the commander of all forces in the Vietnam theater, it didn’t keep his son from flying combat missions or ending up as one of America’s most famous Prisoners of War. Hell, even Sarah Palin brags how she sent her kid off to fight like she was some kind of Spartan brood mare. And seriously, do you really, I mean really, want US military strategy influenced by politicians to protect their own kids? Really? If so, you’re a fucking idiot and your kids are probably fucking idiots too. By all means keep them home, you’re doing us a favor. Because they are likely just one more set of fucking idiots the Chiefs and Sergeants and First Shirts don’t have to waste time deprogramming. "<br /><br />Jim, lemme say this about that. When most people say they want the politicos kids first on the battlefield, they aren't suggesting that having them there would change our method of warfighting, they (and I) are saying that, were the scions of the rich and powerful Chickenhawks in office were put at risk FIRST, those assholes would be a lot less likely to throw us into the meat grinder. Thats all. These elected pricks are all too willing to start wars with no thought of cost or consequence to salve their own egos and cowardice.<br /><br />As for Palin, her scumbag kid HAD to join the military or go to jail, for the crime of cutting the break lines of school buses. Personally, I don't a scumbag like him in my army.<br /><br />Love your blog and your writing. Keep up the great work.Cthulhunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-71406197706297049412012-09-16T23:37:02.015-05:002012-09-16T23:37:02.015-05:00Aren't people who mouth off with no sitrep jus...Aren't people who mouth off with no sitrep just great? (do I need the sarcasm warning?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-77663366051793263762011-12-08T00:02:27.052-06:002011-12-08T00:02:27.052-06:00Thank you for capturing people's sentiments so...Thank you for capturing people's sentiments so completely. You have honored not only these Navy SEALS, but also their family and friends. The general public can never thank you enough, Jim.plentyoffish.comhttp://www.datingopinions.org/dating-reviews-of-plenty-of-fish-com.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-18572865666680307602011-08-25T20:38:23.244-05:002011-08-25T20:38:23.244-05:00Jim -
I haven't posted in a long time but sti...Jim -<br /><br />I haven't posted in a long time but still read whenever you have a new post. A buddy of mine is a CT at DEVGRU. They were on their way back from a mission (that's all I can say in this forum, you can figure out the rest by the personnel they had onboard) and were the closest to answer the distress signal.Craig Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15711217392065080318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-54114561020578642232011-08-24T13:31:22.283-05:002011-08-24T13:31:22.283-05:00Jim
Sorry to be a it late on this one but for all...Jim<br /><br />Sorry to be a it late on this one but for all the conspiracy theorists who don't grasp the idea of miitry planning and how they may or may not handle the unexpected. here is a point by point chilling account of how such a mission can be successful despite glitchs along the way.prijonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-27542065301342858302011-08-21T13:40:01.981-05:002011-08-21T13:40:01.981-05:00Mistakes happen. They happen in family life, at wo...Mistakes happen. They happen in family life, at work, and of course at warr. I have been intimately familiar with the Tennyson poem since childhood, and always felt that many of those horse soldiers knew it was a very bad idea, but they each also refused to be the first one to turn his horse and flee.<br /><br />When mistakes are made by your superior officer, people die. That's the hell of command. Which brings me to a bit of my personal story:<br /><br />I was born at Bergstrom AFB outside of Austin while my daddy was learning to fly jets, just after his reserve unit was called up. It was 8 months later that he was finally deployed to Korea to fly an F-84, a machine with virtually no shielding and soon to be replaced by the F-86 which proved an effective MIG catcher.<br /><br />On my father's second mission, as the new guy he was wingman to the commander of the 5 jet unit. Their target was a railroad bridge in N. Korea. His bomb dropped as designed, but his boss's did not so that major decided to make a second pass. My father, as wingman, stayed with him.<br /><br />Now, here's the thing about running your target again: the anti-aircraft people know you're there and they're ready for you (notice the correct use of those words? I have a Master's in English. Feel free to point and laugh if I miss anything. After all, it's only from Texas A&M in an outlying area.) And they were certainly ready. My father's plane was hit. It went down not too far away.<br /><br />More than a half century later, after taking the anecdotal history to the Air Force in 2002 and 2003, I discover that my grandmother and I, who never believed that he died there, were correct. The AF had declared him "missing, presumed dead" several years later and my mother, widowed with three children (I have two older brothers) was free to remarry. I dreamed that someday my real daddy would come home.<br /><br />I got a notice from YouTube one day of a new comment; it was from a researcher informing me of the recently-declassified 944 list of over 700 missing men who were KNOWN to be POWs left behind in Korea. Most were airmen. My father's name was on that list. The researcher had found my song, "When You Comin' Home, Daddy?" and contacted me by posting commentary. I was blown away.<br /><br />Not long after the war, another member of that 5-man flight had come to the family business in Kansas City to meet my grandfather and tell that he had personally flown over the wreckage and saw that the seat belt on the ejected seat was undone, and he believed my father had survived. Of course there could be no rescue effort because it was so far behind the lines. This story has been passed down and I tried to take it to the AF to no avail; however, with the declassification of the 944 list, this changes everything.<br /><br />I have been reading posts here (in reverse order, now back to Oct. 2009) for several weeks now, and feel I can participate. I am an old hippie and am still against war as a general rule, except under extreme circumstances, but have always been sharply aware that my opinion wouldn't matter but for men like my father. And Jim. And my husband, despite him having been in the peacetime Navy. Besides, he joined in 1957 to get out of the Texas cotton fields and see the world, and spent the majority of his hitch in Corpus Cristi! That's about typical. But he hasn't had to farm cotton ever since.<br /><br />Thanks for presenting stories such as this, Jim. Yes, there are always giant screwups such as in the poem, but sooner or later we will understand why, and no longer have to do and die. If my father had been as famous as Pat Tillman, it might not have taken 50 years to learn the truth. There are so many stories.<br /><br />These stories deserve to be told.MaryK Crofthttp://marykmusic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-70779378380452401262011-08-19T16:55:15.762-05:002011-08-19T16:55:15.762-05:00I think what bothered me most about what happened ...I think what bothered me most about what happened is the added value placed on the men who died BECAUSE they were SEALs. Yes, they were highly trained and valuable for that, but they were still soldiers first -- like the hundreds of OTHER soldiers lost in this senseless war. It bothers me the way the media and self-proclaimed experts weigh the value of one life higher than another. I don't think the family and friends that KIA soldiers leave behind see that distinction. Nor should we.Marianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-59789326508455682342011-08-19T09:04:25.050-05:002011-08-19T09:04:25.050-05:00This was a tragedy, but a tragedy that has happen ...This was a tragedy, but a tragedy that has happen in previous wars and will happen again and again as men and women put their lives on the line for this country. In all probability similar missions have been successful in this war. We don't hear much about them. If we have learned anything from history, it is the fine line between a successful mission and a tragedy. How close was the Normandy invasion to being a huge disaster? The raid that took our bin Laden? <br /><br />Save your arm-chair monday morning quarterbacking for football and instead mourn the loss of of men and a dog who gave their lives for their country.Lee27https://www.blogger.com/profile/00514038275077027651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-36113832752835046292011-08-19T01:04:20.164-05:002011-08-19T01:04:20.164-05:00So since average Joe can't just call his buddy...So since average Joe can't just call his buddy in Naval Intelligence to find out say "about how many Soviet helicopters did the Afghans drop" rather than his first impression of "a lot" what is he supposed to do? <br /><br />Are you saying the WIKI information is inaccurate? If so refer us to a better source. Jerking off online by claiming us dumb civilians know nothing is NOT the way to encourage responsible civilian oversight of the US military. <br /><br />It's petty elitism that leads to thinking such as "since we KNOW the military is corrupt in spending our money let's just cut the budget of ALL programs in half." Which is bullshit, but can be justified if the military makes every damn thing a secret. <br /><br />Some refinement on the vague impression that the afghans are really good at killing helicopters so maybe using them at all was a fuck-up. Well, <i>that might be useful.</i><br /><br />It gets the conversation off of:<br />"Trust us we'er the experts" and "For experts you guys fuck-up a lot." Which is useless. <br /><br />/rantPangolinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18369503994505817789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-64472113947075311392011-08-18T06:46:38.516-05:002011-08-18T06:46:38.516-05:00Excellent, Jim. Thank you.
There is intentional m...Excellent, Jim. Thank you.<br /><br />There is intentional misinformation out there, but it isn't the conspiracy the armchair war-quarterbacks think it is. Instead, it is rumor-mongering on the Internet and in the media as part of the ongoing effort to discredit our president. He had the audacity to get Osama bin Laden like he said he would and no one could outright criticize him for it because most Americans were happy about it. Thus, fostering seeds of doubt about the event is the next best thing.<br /><br />All rightwing and profit/power grubbing efforts are going into undermining our president in any way possible before the next election. Any opportunity to insinuate he is corrupt and evil is used.<br /><br />It isn't an accident that everything our military does is suddenly open to examination and criticism by countless no-nothings as though they are experts when such behavior would have shocked previous generations. Exploiting our contemporary belief that no bad things, including accidents, should <i>ever</i> happen and if they do, someone <i>must</i> be blamed and <i>must</i> pay a heavy price for it, Karl Rove, Dickwad Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfawitz (especially Rove and Cheney) cynically considered nothing too sacred for use as spin-fodder, and their tradition continues. In this case, fallen soldiers are callously exploited by some to besmirch a president, and by others to grab attention from viewers for profit-seeking media outlets.<br /><br />The nutjobs fall for it. They believe they are independent thinkers, yet they fall right into line as planned, buying and being distracted by every insinuation and misleading soundbite put in front of them.<br /><br />Lately, it feels like our country has descended into one huge, really bad reality show about dimwits all being trashy and stupid together. And the world is our audience.beemodernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17180046342466780318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-6168282129082694222011-08-18T04:01:57.597-05:002011-08-18T04:01:57.597-05:00Warrant, personally I blame lacadaisical education...Warrant, personally I blame lacadaisical educations since no one bothers with actually READING what they take off the internet, they just skim it...<br /><br />Heaven forbid we maintain high expectations these days.Wine Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-698459352343967952011-08-16T13:27:37.476-05:002011-08-16T13:27:37.476-05:00Wine guy, it also leads to a rather loose intepre...Wine guy, it also leads to a rather loose intepretation of the word "reseach." Looking a subject up on wikipedia or the nearest conspiracy site isn't research, but a hell of a lot of folks seem to think otherwise ~ and seem to think that actual reseach and investigation requires neither training or formal techique.Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-20016931340802856952011-08-16T12:38:07.515-05:002011-08-16T12:38:07.515-05:00@ Stuart:
I don't think we can since the adve...@ Stuart:<br /><br />I don't think we can since the advent of the internet, everyone thinks that being able to look up data means that they can also interpret the data.<br /><br />From personal experience in the military and medical fields, this is NOT the case.<br /><br />But no one these days is willing to say "I dunno. Let me pay an expert and then actually follow the suggestions that they make."<br /><br />They just google it, find it on Wikipedia (oh so trustworthy wikipedia) and say "Hey! Now I know what to do."<br /><br />And that leads to, as the 15 year olds these days say, "Epic Fail."Wine Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-19154189090474225972011-08-15T15:03:37.661-05:002011-08-15T15:03:37.661-05:00It isn't just the military and their decisions...It isn't just the military and their decisions, I work in theatre, and after the terrible disaster in Indiana the internet and news is now positively choked with people who are self appointed experts in rig design, crowd management, and weather forecasting.<br /><br />If you are not a qualified expert, maybe you ought to just shut up and listen. How do we teach this?Stuartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-9040102980153884602011-08-15T14:14:22.888-05:002011-08-15T14:14:22.888-05:00And what people don't want to remember about L...And what people don't want to remember about Lord Cardigan's Brigade is that they were competent soldiers doing their job and achieved their objective despite the poor communication.<br /><br />Personally, I think that scares people, especially those who have little true experience with military matters.Wine Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-15816505290489857302011-08-15T14:04:52.087-05:002011-08-15T14:04:52.087-05:00Never before have so few military specialists had ...Never before have so few military specialists had so many jostling their elbows and Monday morning quarterbacking.<br /><br />My solution for the media pollution of military operations = remove all the embedded journalists that have been in theater for more than 6 months straight and replace them with the talking heads. The embedded journalists become the talking heads ONLY if they have more than 2 years in military experience (either embedded as journalists or prior service).Wine Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-66170622650925344142011-08-15T13:31:56.874-05:002011-08-15T13:31:56.874-05:00Bravo, Zulu Shipmate.
L. Johnson
EM1(SW) USN (Ret...Bravo, Zulu Shipmate.<br /><br />L. Johnson<br />EM1(SW) USN (Ret)Warpedninenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-58815560538419832892011-08-15T01:28:54.839-05:002011-08-15T01:28:54.839-05:00I've never been in the military, never been in...I've never been in the military, never been in combat, and never commanded troops. Therefore, I will trust that the people in command in the war zones are a lot more qualified to make decisions than I am. I will not question what they do or how they do it.<br /><br />I WILL, however, grieve when a member of our military is lost. I will also continue to hope our men and women in uniform are brought home as soon as possible, that the number of casualties is kept as low as humanly possible and that the men who died in that helicopter and their families may someday find peace. They have my respect, my gratitude and my prayers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-24879089226366769552011-08-14T19:17:10.979-05:002011-08-14T19:17:10.979-05:00Well, typed with a deep sigh, I read your blog wit...Well, typed with a deep sigh, I read your blog with a sense, as I often do when reading your blogs, that I am not a "stranger in a strange land". I feel sometimes as if I am surrounded by idiots practicing to be assholes.<br />I wonder what rocks these morons crawl out from under. And sometimes and some events like this one wear on me. So, it helps to read Stonekettle Station. It is my little island of sanity and balance in a generally out of kilter world where common sense prevails against all comers.<br /><br />Thank you for being a small bright beacon of light in a dark crazy world.<br /><br />PS Loved your weaving the Light Brigade throughout the post.rangersmomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-47986690887697585252011-08-14T18:16:38.653-05:002011-08-14T18:16:38.653-05:00thank you Jim. my heart is full.thank you Jim. my heart is full.bubblesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-55885591402836565052011-08-14T13:50:17.792-05:002011-08-14T13:50:17.792-05:00Thank you for this. Comments like the ones you des...Thank you for this. Comments like the ones you described are exactly why I avoid most comment threads. There are very few websites where the signal to noise ratio makes any kind of conversation possible.<br /><br />By the way, thanks also for taking the time to keep this site's comment threads clear of (most of) the idiocy that plagues the internet. I appreciate that.Dan Bresslerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11918684754488435769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-88772263404645694442011-08-14T11:18:16.529-05:002011-08-14T11:18:16.529-05:00Jim, great post. I have a friend who has been a SE...Jim, great post. I have a friend who has been a SEAL for many years. What a great person he is, his love for his country, and us is unequaled. I pray for his safety. He is no longer an active participant in raids, but an instructor. I will say he is proud of what he does, and we are proud of him. If "Jason" is a typical example, than this country is lucky to have such people. I also really love the poem, and I hope all who read your articles understand the sacrifice these people undertake for our benefit. If this is socialism, then give me more.Bufordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562503298407472200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-53977330156476353902011-08-14T11:09:11.395-05:002011-08-14T11:09:11.395-05:00@Janiece, yeah, that's the part that made me l...@Janiece, yeah, that's the part that made me laugh too. Brainwashing. Man, <i>if only</i>. Life would have been so much easier for us Chiefs if the troops and junior officers had been programmed drones instead of the mouthy opinionated individuals they actually are ;)Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-46274119598333733952011-08-14T10:18:09.200-05:002011-08-14T10:18:09.200-05:00@Anonymoous:
Why would you speak out anything th...@Anonymoous: <br /><br /><em>Why would you speak out anything that might be wrong with anything military? Your pride in it, and any other military person who supports what america is doing around the world with that MILITARY, is something dispicable to me. I don't give a flying F what ANYONE says! </em><br /><br />You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and your right to express it under the First Amendment. But you're just simply <em>wrong</em> if you think every member of the military supports each and every action and conflict they're ordered to. Every military member has their own private opinion on such matters, although those on active duty are not permitted to express those opinions publicly. <br /><br />It's a <em>civilian controlled</em> military, not a military junta. So if you're going to hate the military, please have the insight to do so for valid and defensible reasons, not some claptrap about "brainwashing."<br /><br />"Brainwashing." Hehe.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06223994862015217811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-25451882101572983502011-08-14T09:20:40.424-05:002011-08-14T09:20:40.424-05:00@ Pangolin - Just a bit of clarification... The le...@ Pangolin - Just a bit of clarification... The level of support provided to the Mujahideen is not clear because of the surreptitious routes used. We (the US) did provide Stinger MANPAD SAMS and these were used to shoot down Russian helicopters combined with RPG's. The shortfall of an RPG is that it does NOT have a guidance system and has a folding fin stabilization system, however, it does have a self-destruct mechanism in the warhead set for approximately 920 meters which an experienced gunner can use to get a proximity kill. The folding fin stabilization system causes the RPG to be affected by crosswinds causing the projectile to turn into the wind. Having said that, the majority of our (US) losses since Somalia have been attributed to RPG’s which are not affected by all the sophisticated sensors and jammers we have installed.<br /><br />I won’t bore your readers (or feed the theorists… threat/OPSEC is a concern but the info is readily available) discussing the TTP’s employed but they are designed to reduce the threat and lethality of RPG’s… but as a non-guiding weapon it does not provide a signature until it’s been fired. The current TTP’s employed by the Taliban are for a head-on shot at 100 meters which gives aviators minimal time to react.<br /><br />Finally, Jim, a clarification on the “Vietnam era” CH-47… the update variant used today for conventional aviation forces is the CH-47F… It is NOT your Mother’s Chinook… The basic airframe may look the same but it is completely rebuilt, updated and modernized. As a National Guard unit I can’t say which model they were flying but I do know that we had already started fielding them to units deploying to OEF. Coming from a Gun Pilot flying sexy sleek attack helicopters, make NO mistake... The CH-47 with tandem rotor system and 2 huge powerplants hauls serious ass with heavy loads! Size may be an issue but speed is not...Kamikazihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05017268094936937120noreply@blogger.com