Comments on Stonekettle Station: Uncivil Righteousness

LOVE IT, LOVE, IT, LOVE IT!!!! Seriously man, you...

2011-12-16T05:01:22.120-09:00

LOVE IT, LOVE, IT, LOVE IT!!!! Seriously man, you make point after point! I have told every person I know about Stonekettle Station, because this fulfills a need in my life to find people who think the way I do.

I live in the south and most everyone I know is a devout christian and a gun totting republican. Don't get me wrong, I own a gun, but I don't yell out ye-haw.....EVER. Anyways, I just wanted to tell you that my wife and I enjoy your blog immensely and we always look forward to your posts.

Thanks!!!

"[].. for the last two and a half centuries, ...

2011-12-13T07:46:22.837-09:00

"[].. for the last two and a half centuries, senators and representatives exactly like Michele Bachmann have used their religion, bigotry, and shameless lust for power to define who exactly gets to be a human being in America and who doesn’t."

This leads me directly to the question of why you, Jim, would support such an arrangement with your life, your sacred honor or even your vote; given that we still have to battle this system itself daily, tooth and nail, to get any surcease?

Believe me, I'm not being a dick; just trying to figure out why most people[who live within US borders(sic)] support the arrangement, by commission or omission. And no, I don't have an alternative, except that whatever it is would be a hell of a lot more organic in the socio-chemical sense
(and by Dog, I do love Heinlein!).

Actually, a bunch of anti-government ministers spent some nasty time in pre-revolutionary Pennsylvania jail, because they refused to acknowledge the governments right (sic) to demand that marriage be liscenced (anointed) by the state (and permit fees collected there on). I think they had a point.

And frankly, one spouse drives me crazy enough,...

2011-12-12T14:41:05.780-09:00
And frankly, one spouse drives me crazy enough, I sure as hell wouldn't want another one... ;)

Everybody wants two wives... nobody wants two mothers in law.

To clearly divide church and state when I was wed ...

2011-12-12T11:11:38.662-09:00
To clearly divide church and state when I was wed my wife and I got married twice.

I am an Orthodox Jew (not actively practicing, though). To clearly delineate between the religious institution and the civil contract we had a wedding performed by a female Judge, and then the person who led the formal ceremony was not registered in the state.

Neither one is legally recognized by the other, as it should be.

My wife and I are firm believers of separation of Church and State, and this was a simple, painless, but crystal clear way to show our support for all our gay couples who still can not wed.

It seems to me that we are missing the point in th...

2011-12-11T08:57:21.981-09:00
It seems to me that we are missing the point in the argument about gay marriage being a threat to traditional marriage. (Note: I do not agree with the following line of reasoning, merely doing my best to illuminate the train of thought that leads to this stance.) I don’t think that the people who posit this argument are under any assumption that gay marriage will somehow ruin their marriage. What I think they do believe is that if we allow people to start marrying others of the same sex, future generations will see this as an increasingly attractive option. This will lead to a country full of sexual deviation, a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah writ large across the whole country. Once that happens, God will clearly no longer be on our side and it is only a matter of time before this once great country collapses into a cesspool of sin and iniquity.

PS: I have been reading this blog for a few months now without commenting. I just wanted to say I love your writing and your style of argumentation really drives the point home in a way that is difficult to disagree with.

Great post....excellent! I really think you speak...

2011-12-11T08:04:04.265-09:00
Great post....excellent! I really think you speak for a lot of us out here with your writing. I would hazard a guess that a great majority think like this, we are just never the one polled...LOL.

couple of things... First, Jim, you are my god wh...

2011-12-10T17:44:30.349-09:00
couple of things...

First, Jim, you are my god when it comes to putting complex seeming responces into easy to understand prose. Thanks once again for your post.

Second, Canada survived the economic crisis because Canada regulates their banking industry. I tend to use that point when arguing with the idiot right about "free market" and "not too big to fail". While I do get a few chuckles about Canada being a "free marriage" country and not having the issues economically we are, they are not related.

Third, the word you should be using (especially in reference to Heinlein) is Polyamory, not polygamy. Polyamory is the state of "loving more than one" and there are well in excess of 100,000 poly relationships in America alone. While they can't get married in the traditional sense, civil unions in many states have resolved the legal issues.

Thanks again, Jim.

Reading all that gave me two thoughts. So, someone...

2011-12-10T03:38:33.732-09:00
Reading all that gave me two thoughts. So, someone is born a woman and decides later in life to become a man. She goes through all the legal mumbo jumbo and gets her identification changed over to male. Time for the last thing, she gets an operation and is officially legally a male. Who does "he" marry? Say "he" marrys a woman. By law "he" is male. Wait though, "he" was born a she. Do a DNA test and, ta-da, reads female. So "he" can't do that, same sex and according to her not aloud. So "he" marrys a man. Oh, wait, can't do that either. "He" is legally a male, so no-no-no. Seems "he" would be screwed, but she has to give "him" a right to marry. That would be the kicker, either one she approves of could be concidered same sex depending on your view point. So, which one? 2nd question, what if you are born with both sex organs? Either way you go would be same and different sex at the same time. What then? Ok, I know that often one is chosen and the other discarded, or one set works but the other doesn't, but ignore that when you think of it. So according to her not all Americans have the same right, how do you marry the opposite sex if you were born both? If you were born one and became the other, what then? They have a right to marry, but who?

Just a thought.

Sadly, that sort of conservatism is pretty much...

2011-12-09T21:21:14.516-09:00
Sadly, that sort of conservatism is pretty much dead and gone. Instead we have radicals on the right who want to dictate what happens in the bedroom, wishy-washy do-nothings on the left who don't have a problem with that, and traditional conservatism like Heinlein embodied... eh.

You're going to love tomorrow's post.

Polygamists do have the right to marry, they ju...

2011-12-09T21:18:16.592-09:00
Polygamists do have the right to marry, they just have to marry somebody of the opposite sex and only one at a time...

Quit making fun of Newt Gingrich!

(Sorry, couldn't resist ;).

One of the things that often confused critics of Robert Heinlein's supposedly "militaristic" views was his rather... free... handling of the whole polygamy thing. In his personal life he was decidedly monogamous -- I doubt Ginny would have put up with anything else, she was made of sterner stuff than that, but given the way he always talked of Ginny (almost worshipfully) it's doubtful he was ever tempted to test that -- but in his novels marriage agreements were loose and free and might be between any number of people of any sexual orientation (though given his generation, he didn't quite "get" some of the new permutations of such that have become common lately). "But... free love... starship storm troopers... does not compute... szzzzzzzzl". But in a sense that was an expression of an old kind of conservatism that doesn't seem around anymore, what I might call "MYOB Conservatism". Not exactly Libertarianism, though with some libertarian tendencies, but more along the lines of, "a strong government for what needs strong government to deal with, and MYOB for everything else." A sort of conservatism that was *not* about dictating who could marry who or what kind of sexual acts they could do in the bedroom.

Sadly, that sort of conservatism is pretty much dead and gone. Instead we have radicals on the right who want to dictate what happens in the bedroom, wishy-washy do-nothings on the left who don't have a problem with that, and traditional conservatism like Heinlein embodied... eh. Was a good idea, I guess.

- Badtux the Traditionalist Penguin

Polygamists do have the right to marry, the...

2011-12-09T20:54:27.094-09:00
Polygamists do have the right to marry, they just have to marry somebody of the opposite sex and only one at a time...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

My personal feelings on polygamy? I don't care. As long as everybody is of legal age, in their right mind, and under their own free will I really don't see what difference it makes or what business it is of mine.

Hell, come to think of it, there's even biblical precedent, isn't there?

Now that said, I will qualify that answer with this: same-sex marriage requires no changes to existing legal structures or laws (excepting those laws specifically enacted to bar same-sex marriage).
We just have to stop acting like assholes about it.

Polygamy would require that serious and complex legal questions be addressed, such as child custody, property ownership, inheritance, beneficiaries, insurance, and so on. All of which could be done, certainly, but would require significant effort and a change of attitude at a number of levels.

I will also say that I don't believe the two situations are directly analogous. I don't think same-sex marriage is a special-right, or a "gay-right." I think it's a civil right.

I'm not sure polygamy is - I'm not sure that it's not, but I note that there aren't a lot of people at the moment demanding the right to marry multiple partners either. That could change in the future. Until then, I reserve judgement.

And frankly, one spouse drives me crazy enough, I sure as hell wouldn't want another one... ;)

Question: let's presume the LGBT lobby wins ou...

2011-12-09T19:42:44.550-09:00
Question: let's presume the LGBT lobby wins out, and homosexuals are indeed accorded the same right to marry the person they love. The way things are going, the only conjecture about this is "when?" not "if?"

Cannot the same cogent argument that you just posted be used by polygamists?

What's YOUR feeling on the rights of polygamists to marry the oneS they love?

I don't think anybody, not even Jim (long may ...

2011-12-09T18:48:25.641-09:00
I don't think anybody, not even Jim (long may he wave!) has explicitly remarked on the inherent contradiction of Bachmann's pronouncement:

BACHMANN: No, I said that there are no special rights for people based upon your sex practices. There's no special rights based upon what you do in your sex life.

But that's EXACTLY what she's saying. If you and your loved one engage in only hetero sex, you can get married. That's a special right based on your sexual practices.

And the whole "if gays can marry, then people can marry their dog and their tractor" argument is just like saying that if we allow people to eat meat, then next thing you know we'll have cannibals chasing you and your kids down the streets with forks and steak sauce. Same stupid argument.

I challenged a fundamentalist once to go find the Bible verse where Jesus condemned homosexuals. Neither of us had a Bible on us at the time or I could have shown her, especially promptly in the red-letter edition, that there is no such verse. What Jesus did condemn-- repeatedly-- was being rich, but those verses have been torn out. He also said that divorce and remarriage was the same as adultery, which the Ten Commandments was rather down on, but that's been torn out too. Ron and Nancy Reagan were both divorced, and they were the right wing's darlings until they got too damn liberal and socialist for the looneys in charge of the GOP now. And Newt's okay with them because he's been "forgiven." Isn't that nice?

A slight majority of Americans-- especially young people-- now believe that same-sex marriage should be legal, and the percentage is increasing all the time. That is one of the few things that give me hope for this benighted country.

I copied a photo off the internet somewhere that shows a couple of young women in nice dresses and a middle-aged man and woman, all with big smiles and their arms around each other. The man is holding a sign that says, "We love our daughter and her new wife." When I'm fed up, I look at that picture, and it makes me feel better about humans.

and we couldn't even get him to come that f...

2011-12-09T17:03:52.125-09:00
and we couldn't even get him to come that far for a beer

Yeah. There's a little more to that story

fng, we Ohioans have no worries about Jim collecti...

2011-12-09T16:20:17.275-09:00
fng, we Ohioans have no worries about Jim collecting on those drinks, heck, this summer 4 of his fans, including the one right above (Jane) were in Anchorage and we couldn't even get him to come that far for a beer. I wish he would come collect some, I feel like he's doing all the giving, Maybe it's time to buy another bird house.

Thank you, thank you! As usual you have crystaliz...

2011-12-09T15:37:54.395-09:00
Thank you, thank you! As usual you have crystalized so many of the thoughts and arguments that have been trying to organize themselves in my brain. I can try to refute and dispute the anti-gay sentiments I hear but you do it so much better. Now I can just copy and paste your blog's address and let them read it.

I know you have probably 40 comments like this, bu...

2011-12-08T23:05:17.397-09:00
I know you have probably 40 comments like this, but I love you and you rock so very much. Preach it, Warrant.

I hope you won't mind, but I'm going to fo...

2011-12-08T20:08:39.206-09:00
I hope you won't mind, but I'm going to forward a link to your post to the Pastor of my church. I think he and his (male) partner of 25 years will very much enjoy reading it.

I don't need to join the chorus of "well-...

2011-12-08T19:14:34.472-09:00
I don't need to join the chorus of "well-said"s, but I'd like to be there when all these folks start buying you drinks. I'll help deal with the overflow.

I liked your PS commandments almost as much as you...

2011-12-08T12:16:39.852-09:00
I liked your PS commandments almost as much as your post.

As usual, outstanding work, Warrant.

You have made your point clearly and I appreciate ...

2011-12-08T09:15:43.856-09:00
You have made your point clearly and I appreciate that. Hope you continue to see clearly other issues.

Anonymous, I live in a city...oh hell ok I live in...

2011-12-08T06:54:35.634-09:00
Anonymous, I live in a city...oh hell ok I live in Boston. Over time I've noticed behavior that backs you up. The guys that are always looking for other guys whether at the gym, in a park, near gay bars or in rest areas are almost always "straight" men, especially married ones. (remember this the next time you're naked at the gym...the guy most likely checking you out isn't the little girly one in the corner...he's getting plenty of sex. It's the guy with the wedding ring or athlete.) It's because they just can't be who they are because the courage to do that is very lacking in the general human population, especially when faced with huge societal pressure.

A friend and I play this game on Sunday mornings. We look at the NYT wedding announcements and play "Does she know her fiancee/husband is gay" Try it! It's fun! It's sort of the same for me with Tebow...hmmm....what's all this "in your face Christianity" covering up? Because, you just know it's covering up something.

But being deadly serious for a moment letting people be who they really are makes all of this a non-issue. If every kid felt that he or she would still be loved and accepted no matter what, they'd be no need for deceit and people living dual lives. It's not fair to either of them. So yes, part of this is just about being honest, open, and fair. And saying that love is love. Period.

Jim et All Since my friend Steve did mention Cana...

2011-12-08T06:14:33.868-09:00
Jim et All

Since my friend Steve did mention Canada, I want to run something from this way past the Americans.

As far as I know, Canada and the USA share a reciprocal agreement on very many legal issues. Now, I don't know exactly how far this goes, but on many legal licenses, if you have one in Canada, you have it in the USA. The driver's license being a good example here. (Ok, not your concealed handgun permit.)And most importantly, your marriage certificate. But its legal for same sex couples to get an official, Government of Ontario sanctioned, duly registered marriage certificate.

What, I cross that line and suddenly its not a legal document any more?

Pierre Trudeau said (famously): 'The State has no place in the bedrooms of the Nation'. Ok, it was back in the early 70's, and yes the politicians here took decades to get *their* acts together.

Just something to think about - maybe a possible legal argument for some hot shot lawyer type?

PS - NOT THAT I SUPPORT THIS OPINION!
I think the 'slippery slope, it costs us hetros' argument (if there even *could* be a rational argument) goes like this: If we let same sex couples legally marry, think of all those spousal / survivor benefits that will have to be paid. Dental. Maternity Leave. Health Insurance.
(Ok, I *do* support spousal benefits for same sex *married* couples...)

PPS - My wife (girlfriend at the time) was so determined to NOT to have children that she had her tubes tied - as a young woman in the early 80's. Not the easiest thing to get approved back then. I could then (and even more so now) live without 20 years of life focus primarily on children. This obviously makes me some kind of Godless heathen? No sex for me? (Wait a minute, I *am* some kind of Godless heathen...)

PPS - As for farm machinery, I think clearly being non living, farm machines have no intrinsic 'rights'. I can't imagine this situation applies to any of your dear readers, but winter *is* just starting to set in for all of us up North...

all i can say is meh

2011-12-08T05:32:17.860-09:00
all i can say is meh

Skyman_ It's not unusual for closeted gay men ...

2011-12-07T22:41:30.075-09:00
Skyman_ It's not unusual for closeted gay men to display such cognitive dissonance in the extreme to the point of extreme public homophobia while privately pursuing active, even obsessive, homosexual, um, contacts.

I know a guy like that; I call him "Dad." I've watched him trying to pathetically deny the fact that he regularly wrote checks to a bar called "The White Swallow." Call me crazy but I am freaking all for gay marriage. Because it's honest. It let's people be who they really are. Because nobody should feel forced to lie about who they are and not one more child should have to grow up living in a web of lies.

Hey, TMI? Probably. Honesty is way overdue on some of this. If you don't turn the compost pile it will always stink.

-J.P.