Comments on Stonekettle Station: Occupy Wall Street, Lessons From The Tea Party, an...

Good stuff. Thank God that corporations have free ...

2011-11-20T21:11:51.309-09:00

Good stuff. Thank God that corporations have free speech or the OWS would be a danger.
Thankfully, Jim, they're not--the clear and present danger is the OWS, not the corporations. Thanks to the POTUS.

Actually, I would agree with most of your post were it not for the fact that the corporations' "free speech" have obviously coopted the representative democracy you appeal to. That's a shame. But there we are. It's the '60's all over again. And I'm not particularly fond of OWS, but given a choice between them and POTUS and corporate unlimited donations, well, you need to define exactly what democracy means.
I would like to go to the Smithsonian Air and Space. And I would like to vote where the banks didn't own our legislators. It's not necessarily a choice between the two, right now, but it sure seems like it.
Maybe the top .1% will give back, however, and my little pony will shit skittles and open the way to the Smithsonian for all who want to see the space capsule without cashing in their dividends for the last year.
And is Niven the equivalent to Lord Keynes or is he some dumb ass from Texas like Perry? If he's a sci-fi author can I quote Scientology against him? Because I'm pretty sure Phil Dick would be supporting OWS against Niven--admittedly Niven is a pretty good fascist. I read some of his early fiction until I got tired of it after Ringworld.
So Lessons from Phil Dick seems a real good follow-up post.
Actually, your fine unless unemployment stays where it is or increases.
If it increases, I'm afraid that flustering about access to space museums won't have much credence among the unemployed. But I guess if we cut spending, employment will increase, according to Niven. Right?
My only point is that you assume here--access to museums being the supreme value--that things will get better. If not, will anyone care about viewing the space capsule without being bothered?
That's a thought experiment that you might want to consider.
If business suddenly starts hiring the unemployed 20%, your concern about public access will be quite right. Just saying--correctness is a function of where we will stand in a year or two.
You may be right; you may be wrong. If you have a son/daughter 22 years old, well, you're probably wrong, unless they won the job lottery. If so, good for him/her (mine won, but I'm concerned about the 80% who did not).

RE: "Niven’s Law: No cause is so noble that i...

2011-11-19T15:12:26.096-09:00

RE: "Niven’s Law: No cause is so noble that it won’t attract fuggheads."

I prefer a quote from a character in Robert Penn Warren's first novel, Night Riders, who noted, "the good Lord never got any thousand or so men together for any purpose without a liberal assortment of sons of bitches thrown in."

Well said. Thoughtful, clear-headed. Some really g...

2011-11-18T02:34:30.225-09:00

Well said. Thoughtful, clear-headed. Some really good points forcefully made. The best thing this Aussie has read on the whole Occupy thing yet. Thanks.

Now, now, communism can work, as long as your civi...

2011-11-13T07:24:26.606-09:00

Now, now, communism can work, as long as your civilization has less than 50 people, though once you get enough people that they start not knowing a good chunk of their compatriots, social stratification is inevitable.

But that's enough snark from me. I'm seeing a bunch of people complain that voting isn't enough. Then work out a platform, and try running!

As for organization, last summer I participated in a program sponsored by Sierra Club, teaching people how to organize grassroots movements. I think everyone who cares about politics should participate in such a program, but I'll give the Cliff Notes version here: Come up with a goal, determine your campaign's needs for achieving this goal, and develop an outline for addressing these needs.

How do you implement a currency management func...

2011-11-12T23:01:53.929-09:00
How do you implement a currency management function that is not beholden to Wall Street and special interest, yet is free of Congressional interference (and therefor beyond even minimal voter control).

What do you propose? Some kind of warrior-priest-treasurer class?

Well, now that the dragon has smashed Gringot's, maybe we could put those goblins to work...

Good stuff. Thanks!

2011-11-09T17:56:32.947-09:00
Good stuff. Thanks!

What do you propose? Some kind of warrior-pries...

2011-11-08T07:53:47.759-09:00
What do you propose? Some kind of warrior-priest-treasurer class?_ Jim

I was hoping for eunichs. Perhaps we could get the Ron Paul types and the LaRouchites to volunteer. They seem to have the single-minded dedication required.

once the above are in place, keep congress the ...

2011-11-07T17:27:49.989-09:00
once the above are in place, keep congress the hell out of it.

I'm curious, Anonymous, without the Fed or something very similar to it, how to you propose to implement this. How do you implement a currency management function that is not beholden to Wall Street and special interest, yet is free of Congressional interference (and therefor beyond even minimal voter control).

What do you propose? Some kind of warrior-priest-treasurer class?

Sorry, but the Fed and Congress are still the prob...

2011-11-07T17:19:38.069-09:00
Sorry, but the Fed and Congress are still the problem; Fiat currencies on the whole are also a problem.

And don't confuse my thoughts on the matter with those of Ron Paul or any of those nutbars. There's no going back to the gold standard. The currency *does* need to be at least somewhat related to the real GDP and an aggregate of resources to production to service, not "whatever we feel like issuing this month"; again more the problem of congress than the actual fed.

The problem with the fed is very simple: government interference and malaise. Get some basic regulation, put in a procedure for keeping the currency stable. Most importantly, once the above are in place, keep congress the hell out of it.

Personally, I don't trust a body of elected officials to make decisions about taxes, bailouts and things that effect their own stock portfolios.

Sigh, the anonymous gold bugs strike again. For t...

2011-11-07T15:33:59.605-09:00
Sigh, the anonymous gold bugs strike again.

For those interested (as vs. those whose minds have already been made up by Ron Paul): *ALL* money is fiat money. EVERY SINGLE CURRENCY THAT HAS EVER EXISTED is fiat money. It exists only because people accept it in payment for goods and services -- i.e., every currency that has ever existed IS BACKED BY THE SUM TOTAL OF GOODS AND SERVICES IN THE ECONOMY. Spain overlooked this little quibble during the 1500's and 1600's and ended up with hyperinflation due to all the gold coming in from the Americas because, like modern-day gold bugs, they ascribed magical properties to stamped disks of yellow metal. Point being that gold is *not* magic, it's just another currency, one that has some attributes that are not promising for use as a currency in a world where population is expanding rapidly while the supply of gold is not.

Furthermore, someone saying that our economy is facing inflation right now is deranged, deluded, and utterly insane. Every -- *EVERY* -- measure of actual money supply (that is, money supply as the sum total of all money *in circulation*, vs. money that exists only on the Fed's books and essentially does not exist as far as the economy is concerned) shows that the money supply collapsed horrifically in late 2007 and has only fitfully recovered since.

Frankly, the Federal Reserve's record is pretty darn good *when they're given political cover to do their job*. They didn't do their job in 1929 because the gold standard, by handicapping their ability to print money, kept them from doing their job. The result was a crash of the money supply, meaning debts became unpayable in the now-more-scarce money, meaning that banks collapsed, causing further collapse of the money supply, wash, rinse, repeat, until by late 1933 VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE US ECONOMY WAS ON THE BARTER STANDARD. I.e., *AT A STANDSTILL*, because barter is a horrifically inefficient way of running an economy. My grandmother's county could only get eggs, chicken, corn, and hogs when they went out to tax the farmers, and teachers were thus being paid in eggs, chickens, corn, and salt pork because the money supply had crashed to basically non-existence in most of the country.

My point: Take away the power of the Federal Reserve to print money when deflation is causing debt inflation, and the result is *disaster*. I'll point out that there has been no -- zero -- disaster of that sort ever since the Fed got the power to freely print money in 1935. Just sayin'.

In short, folks saying "abolish the Fed" are ignorant of our nation's economic history and of the reason why we have the Fed. Despite all the bizarre conspiracy theories that gold bugs and assorted other kooks throw out, the Fed exists for a *REASON*, and is pretty much the *ONLY* institution that has performed its job correctly during the current economic downturn by printing money whenever it makes sense to print money. Unfortunately once you hit the zero bounds only fiscal policy works (we have both historical data supporting this notion and equations describing that historical data which predicts what various fiscal policies will result in at a given unemployment rate and interest rate), which is why the austerity craze is such an economic disaster, but now we're talking about the failure of Congress and the President, not the failure of the Fed. So it goes.

- Badtux the Economist Penguin

Sorry to say, but I think that the Fed really is p...

2011-11-07T15:17:05.987-09:00
Sorry to say, but I think that the Fed really is part of the problem. It's an independent bank that issues money on the US government's behalf.

This has lead to wild inflationary rates and a pure fiat currency that is downright scary.

Fiat Currency = Currency based on Nothing.

A US dollar is backed by absolutely nothing, it's perceived value is because the US gov't agrees to accept it for payment of taxes and because the Federal Reserve says so.

Never mind all the black magic that occurs with money lending and so forth.

The housing/mortgage crisis?

Banks lent out money they didn't really have (basically created out of thin air for the purpose of lending by the Fed and lent to the bank, the bank would then pay this back to the fed, effectively 'erasing' the currency, however this never happens 100%, that's part of where inflation comes from.)

I digress though, because essentially, the Fed was told by Congress to keep the money flowing; the fed did so, banks got further 'suggestions' from congress to keep lending, and then started lending to people who couldn't really pay them back, especially when interest rates went back up. The banks just saw short term profit though.

The problem comes when all those unqualified mortgages started defaulting, banks had to write them up as a loss, as the property was worth less than the original mortgage. all the sudden, banks were not able to balance their books by billion dollar amounts.

Again, remember, this money was created by the fed to be lent out, it didn't come into being for any other purpose.

So, the US taxpayer gets pegged by Congress to bail the banks out of their debts to the fed.

The US gov't puts every citizen into debt because of predatory lending practices by big banks.

Now, after all that, who's left holding all this property? the US government? No, the banks who got bailed out.

Yeah. the very people who begged the taxpayer for a handout to pay back money that only existed for the purposes of lending it to taxpayers.

So, the Fed gets their loan to the banks repaid (with interest!), US Congress has their investments protected, the banks get an interest free loan from the taxpayers and the taxpayers get the shaft

I've been reading your blog for a bit, but am ...

2011-11-07T10:32:09.262-09:00
I've been reading your blog for a bit, but am the shy, retiring sort, so haven't ever commented before.

At the risk of being labeled as one of your sycophants - I agree. I agree so much, I felt compelled to say so (a rare thing for me, honest).

I read a lot. Newspapers, magazines, news websites, personal blogs, corporate blogs, links to other blogs, groups, links to articles that a group has posted, I try to read as much as I can, and I try to make sure I am not only reading things that I agree with. In the online world, every article or story or blog that allows comments ends up devolving into a free-for-all, where it isn't okay that we disagree - bad shit should happen to you *because* we disagree. Every comment section (no matter what the original story is about) ends up at that point, and far faster than I could ever have imagined.

I don't know what is fueling the attitude that a lot of people in this country seem to have - whether it comes from a sense of entitlement, or genuine needs being denied, or simple selfishness, or extraordinary arrogance. "I am right. You are not. And I wish for bad things to happen to you, so that you can see how right I am." I don't understand where that comes from, or how to stop it.

It all makes me feel terribly thick, some days, because I just can't seem to understand it.

So thanks for helping me feel not so think (today). And thanks to your commenters as well, for being nice even when they disagree.

Kim

Maybe it wasn't OWS that jumped the shark at t...

2011-11-07T05:34:35.437-09:00
Maybe it wasn't OWS that jumped the shark at the museum: http://my.firedoglake.com/cgrapski/2011/10/09/american-standard-editor-admits-to-being-agent-provacateur-at-d-c-museum/

I'm only maybe 2/3 in agreement with you on th...

2011-11-06T22:51:15.527-09:00
I'm only maybe 2/3 in agreement with you on the politics of the issue, but on the logistics of a protest movement, you expressed it about as well as I've seen anyone do thus far. Well said.

What carpenterblacksmith said.

2011-11-06T21:05:25.127-09:00
What carpenterblacksmith said.

Sorry Jim, not with you on this one. I understand ...

2011-11-06T21:03:24.858-09:00
Sorry Jim, not with you on this one. I understand the OWS message, and it's grown into an international one for good reason. I am not confused. I've understood the purpose from the get-go.

I don't agree the demonstrators are a mob; they've been quite orderly given the circumstances. If they do riot it will be because of abuses by authority, and if that happens, they have every moral right to riot.

They are not trying to tear down the system for a brand new one, they merely want it reformed, back to the one we enjoyed upon entering adulthood.

The stats on the horrendous transfer of wealth and the monetary power over the White House, legislators, even our courts, makes the argument that people who want change should change it through the system as it is, laughable. What do you think a lot of us have been doing for the last 30 years as we saw this train wreck coming? It's only grown worse because of the imbalance of wealth and power. Therefore that is an old saw with no weight behind it.

Last week I sat and listened to someone rail about the "liberal, scum, communists who hate our country and want to tear it apart." One more time I listened to someone who didn't even know he or she was talking to me, about me. I'm pretty disgusted with most of the observations and commentary. Not surprised given what a bunch of butt-heads make up much of our citizenry now, but it does sadden me when so many who really should know better miss the point and the history supporting these sort of movements.

In my book, criticizing, minimizing, dismissing, and stereotyping others who are actually willing to make themselves uncomfortable enough to join a movement like this is just as much a part of the problem. The demonstrators are trying to improve our system for everyone, not only themselves. They want a return to balance and for the government to represent all of the people, as it should. They are the patriots in the real American sense of the word, not us if we don't recognize and honor their efforts as we do for others.

Thank you for writing this. I was beginning to thi...

2011-11-06T18:56:17.038-09:00
Thank you for writing this. I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. THANK YOU. And keep writing.

As a Wisconsinite active in the recall efforts I h...

2011-11-06T18:40:55.507-09:00
As a Wisconsinite active in the recall efforts I have to clarify some of your points.

You said that "In Wisconsin, people were outraged at the government. Outraged that the governor took away collective bargaining rights. They were so outraged they demanded a recall election. They could have changed things, instead far too many folks stayed home, I guess they weren’t that outraged after all."

We had some great turnouts but we are battling something so rich and powerful and insidious and immoral that it negates our efforts: the Koch machine. Not only does it control the spin (reflected in your comment that it was about "collective bargaining" when in fact that is only a part of why we are outraged), it manipulates voters with millions of dollars worth of misleading, distorted, and outright false ads. With everything from fraudulent "absentee ballot applications" to lies about the Democratic challengers I am amazed at the success we had.

When a population is being fed propaganda and don't even know it (thanks to Citizens United) the outcome of elections is artificially altered - and if by some miracle that doesn't do the trick, they have their fall back positions of voter disenfranchisement and election fraud (interestingly the official results in many districts were quite a bit different than the exit polls - go figure). So "getting out the vote" is being reduced to an exercise in futility.

When your vote is worthless, what do you have left?

Regarding the sanitation issue, OWS-NYC now has porta-potties. I'll point out that OWS has tried to rent porta-potties to be placed near the park itself, but after two months New York City is *still* refusing to issue the permit needed for the porta-potties to be placed where they're needed. No reason given, just "permit denied". If there are sanitation issues, they are not being caused by OWS, they are being caused by the City of New York refusing to follow its very own event permitting policies.

In Dallas, OWS has actually sued the city because they wanted to place porta-potties near where needed, but the city refused to issue the permits. The same has happened in a number of other places -- cities deny permits for porta-potties, then blast the protesters for not having porta-potties.

In other words, any sanitation issues involving OWS are being caused by the cities themselves refusing to issue permits to allow porta-potties to be placed near the protests, not by the protesters themselves, who are quite willing to dig in their own pockets and pay for porta-potties (no public money required). The fact that city governments are then using the lack of porta-potties (a lack that THEY THEMSELVES CAUSED) as an excuse for suppressing the protests is yet another example of the sort of official corruption that the OWS movement was all about.

Note that I say "was", because I don't know what it's about now. The problem with anarchists is that they're easy to sway because of their delusion that they're *not* easy to sway, meaning that demonstrations organized by anarchist groups are easy to subvert into whatever the powers that be desire. In the case of OWS, it appears that what the powers that be desire is to have the movement dissolve into violence and in-fighting, just another opportunity to discredit liberals and liberalism (despite the fact that the anarchists involved hate liberals and liberalism as much as they hate the FBI, but that's another issue). Now that the Black Bloc is involved and COINTELPRO fully deployed, I think we've seen the beginning of the end for OWS. When the organized barge in on the unorganized, it's the organized who win, even if outnumbered ten to one. OWS thought that being "leaderless" would render them immune to having their leaders subverted by COINTELPRO. Talk about naive...

- Badtux the Sociology Penguin

I was very disappointed when the peaceful proteste...

2011-11-06T13:34:17.651-09:00
I was very disappointed when the peaceful protesters turned into rioters. They had a good thing going. John Lennon said, "When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system's game. The establishment will irritate you: pull your beard, flick your fact to make you fight. Because once they've got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don't know how to handle is nonviolence and humour." The OWS lost me at that first show of violence. They needed to turn the other cheek but they didn't.

You are right about voting - why are so many willing to give it up? It doesn't matter? But it DOES and it really does help you to FEEL a part of the system. Good or bad, We the People have created that which we are now living. We must end the greed and corruption at home before we can expect our government and banks to be free of the same things. We the People make up all the cogs and wheels that make this country go. By voting we are taking responsibility for our citizenship. Voting DOES matter. I still have faith in America.

Jim, I will say that no matter whether we complete...

2011-11-06T03:07:12.942-09:00
Jim, I will say that no matter whether we completely agree,disagree or somewhere in the middle; I always like to examine my position against yours or others. In my humble opinion I believe that a lot of people think that our system of government which is a representative democracy is based on capitalism. But that is wrong. Capitalism is an economic system that at its deepest core only cares about the bottom line/money. Government is supposed to be all about caring for its citizens. When capitalistic interest control and own our representatives; the people have lost and voting doesn't always act as a correction. I view government as the check and balance for capitalism; it needs to be holding corporations accountable for their actions; whether those actions be against people or the environment. I am almost 60 years old and if I wasn't caring for my husband who just had coronary bypass surgery (thanks to the VA because we can no longer afford insurance) I would be out there marching with the occupiers. I wouldn't be lighting your shit of fire like the 1% of the occupiers are doing. I would be like the other 99% of the occupiers. Please don't blame us all for the actions of a few. It's hard to hard to imagine that you can use a system that you feel is contaminated to try and change that system. Having always peacefully protested the Viet Nam War; I view protests from a wide age spectrum. It certainly is different when your energy is half empty from when your energy is half full. However, right is right. If I were to hoard newspapers and/or cats in my home; you would call me crazy. But if I were to hoard cash in my mansion home you would hold me up as a role model. I have tried to always live my life in moderation trying to maintain my deference between need and want. I feel that the 1% are "crazy" hoarders and the "crazy" are controlling the course of our great country. Thank you for allowing me to express myself and thank you for your service to us and our country.

Couldn't agree more. when can I vote for YOU?

2011-11-05T14:46:35.804-08:00
Couldn't agree more. when can I vote for YOU?

I disagree with the "go out and vote" pa...

2011-11-05T14:26:04.601-08:00
I disagree with the "go out and vote" part of your post. I do vote--but it's getting harder and harder when Congress is 100% bought and there's no credible third-party candidate.

I'm an informed voter. I'm an active constituent--the senior Senator from my state rolls his eyes every time my name comes up in conversation, I've written him so much to express my displeasure with how he's doing things. What recourse do I have but to take to the streets and demand change, when my vote is diluted or negated by corporate money?

(And I beg to differ about the guy crapping on the cop car--I am 100% convinced that the picture was staged.)

Another excellent post. I agree with a lot of you...

2011-11-05T08:55:09.636-08:00
Another excellent post. I agree with a lot of you points, but like many of the other commenters, I can't agree with your solution. The system is broken, I don't see how we can really fix it by voting. While the Dems say they are trying to help the middle class by fighting for our safety nets and trying to slightly increase taxes on the wealthy, I don't think they're hearts are really in it. Witness the constant cave ins and capitulations. Both parties are in the pockets of big business.

Not only that, but you have the GOP actively engaging in voter suppression, likely tampering of the voting systems along with other manipulations of the system that will pretty much ensure the GOP is in power, we're doomed.

I don't know how to solve all this, any more than the OWS people do. But, I'm glad to see them doing SOMETHING and bringing attention to the issues. It's a start. :-)

Ann

You know what - there are some things in this post...

2011-11-05T08:02:28.378-08:00
You know what - there are some things in this post thru a viewpoint I didn't think of. Some things I agree with and still some I disagree with. But nonetheless, or maybe because, I am going to share it because I think that is also what Americans can/should do: discuss, dissect and not rage and dismiss. Thank you for a well written and very intelligent take on OWS!