tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post4502236425270859674..comments2024-03-28T14:52:13.218-05:00Comments on Stonekettle Station: Red SeaJim Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comBlogger251125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-3941232867376231922017-03-23T21:58:06.785-05:002017-03-23T21:58:06.785-05:00My two problems with your article is you say that ...My two problems with your article is you say that liberals don't vote and that we have to try and calm their fears. As a liberal who has lived in conservative states for most of my adult life, I can tell you that is plain wrong. I and most of the liberals I knew in those states voted every chance we got, but our votes could never change a thing. It was like being at the bottom of a mile deep well and no matter how hard I worked, my vote meant nothing. The other problem is how can I calm the fears that the government is coming to take their guns or force their children to be gay? I have told every conservative I know or work with that those things will never happen and the response is always that the only reason those things haven't happened is because conservatives are watching. I can never prove it won't happen because you can't prove a negative.Tom Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15679395491069139802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-64465552334886806012017-03-22T18:52:31.481-05:002017-03-22T18:52:31.481-05:00But Jim's point was that we lefties lost BECAU...But Jim's point was that we lefties lost BECAUSE we didn't legislate - or, at least, address - each baseless fear as if it was a real thing.<br /><br />And MY point is that to run a secular industrial democracy you have to, at some point, pull up your big-girl panties and get over your Bronze Age fears.<br /><br />Or, like Trump, you can pander to them...which is why we're currently in the handbasket of deplorables...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-21753408980892316582017-03-16T23:13:48.476-05:002017-03-16T23:13:48.476-05:00I feel, I imagine, the way the Roman towns and vil...I feel, I imagine, the way the Roman towns and villages felt when they were staring back at the Goth invasion. We may well be entering into another Dark Age, small islands of science and learning surrounded by violence and ignorance. I am old, but feel sad for the sheer waste of human ability the ignorant are hoping to cause. Jim, I'm sorry for being so depressive, but as a History student I at least can see the writing on the wall.B.Pricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01549776717468122590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-62916090185090067532017-03-15T08:49:18.346-05:002017-03-15T08:49:18.346-05:00Not at all. It's just that long form, like the...Not at all. It's just that long form, like the essays here, take a great deal more work than the shorter pieces I do on Facebook and elsewhere. <br /><br />I've had a number of things going on in the last few weeks that have taken up far more of my time than I expected. Thus, I haven't had time to write longer form material here. I will return to longer form shortly. Please be patient. Jim Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259550121437562338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-83873745761749918182017-03-15T00:13:20.503-05:002017-03-15T00:13:20.503-05:00It is obvious that you are giving up on essay blog...It is obvious that you are giving up on essay blog posts. That's OK as far as it goes because I do appreciate your writing. Unfortunately for me I don't participate in Facebook and twitter and that seems where you are heading. So it goes.Skywatcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652963674109917373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-65561502148104384622017-03-13T15:18:21.283-05:002017-03-13T15:18:21.283-05:00In most of the developed world men and women share...In most of the developed world men and women share restrooms without anyone even thinking about it. But the way you reason about letting trans women into the ladies in the U.S. is you point out that there simply have been no assaults. It is a baseless fear. We can't legislate for every baseless fear. <br /><br />The cake question is not ever really about the cake, of course, or never has been so far. it's about writing on the cake. Messages which are something more than just cake. So you say it's illegal to refuse to sell cake to anyone on the basis of sexual orientation, but say there is also a limit to what kind of messages the baker can be asked to inscribe, and that limit is set in the Baker's own mind. He or she might not want to write Fuck Off and Die you Ass Gravy Sucking Pig, either. That's fair. Sell the cake and let the buyers write their own messages. That's a fair enough compromise that doesn't need to cause too much uproar and outrage. BBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-50210335897317005752017-03-13T06:54:40.193-05:002017-03-13T06:54:40.193-05:00To your point, Bill Clinton was the first Democrat...To your point, Bill Clinton was the first Democrat in decades to set aside gun control completely as an election issue. He won two terms by compromising.Rob Osbornehttp://www.weenet.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-91558108430634274432017-03-12T21:44:45.497-05:002017-03-12T21:44:45.497-05:00Kathleen-
I asked you the last time you insisted ...Kathleen-<br /> I asked you the last time you insisted the DNC purged 7 million voters from the rolls to cite your sources. The only mention I have found is by a blogger who has some real tinfoil issues.<br /> I am a Democratic Socialist - have been for damn near 45 years. I have missed 1 election, a local one in, all those years. I attend assembly meetings, write my local assembly members, state legs, and federal legs, work on campaigns for folks I think will serve my community well - though I am generally so far to the left of them they can't see my views without binocs.<br />That being said I disagree with your take on most of your #4.<br />We got a chance for the first time in years and years to put forward non-centrist views and we did damn well.<br /> Look at the party platform which came out of the convention- better than it has been for years.<br /> Doesn't change that we're still in the minority- this country truly shifted right over the last 30 plus years.<br /><br />And please , even intimating Ms Stein was a legitimate candidate ? Pffft. Gary Johnson? Pfft.<br /><br />alaskapihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11900235733791874046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-90868529540122465042017-03-12T14:25:30.308-05:002017-03-12T14:25:30.308-05:00A powerful and dead on essay again. Having a caree...A powerful and dead on essay again. Having a career that is founded on blue collar work that happened to overlap with the white collar sector has shown to me just how clueless liberals, urbanites and city dwellers can be to what transpires across our country. <br />Whether folks like it or not, much of the backcountry, mountain, farm and ocean work environments are steeped in long established tradition and pride. The people who work these environments are what set the foundation of our country.<br />If you are a person who has not know hard labor in these environments, it is easy to disregard those who do and loathe what they believe in. I have witnessed countless clueless people turning up their nose at those who work the land. <br />It all ties in to what Jim writes about. You have to be willing to look at the other side, be willing to put your prejudices and ignorance aside and walk in another's shoes. In the end, you can still agree to disagree but at least you should have a better understanding where we all stand.<br />I know many liberals that are literally ill from the election outcome, nearly all failed to vote in our local elections.<br />Vote each and every time. Don't be a conceited clueless dick, open your eyes, quite pissing and moaning and get to work. Jim says it all.Sitkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15947822002695098506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-37276660423855219482017-03-10T03:59:08.579-06:002017-03-10T03:59:08.579-06:00Oops. above should say "You can say that'...Oops. above should say "You can say that's silly, but you can't say that countless millions of human beings have NOT done....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-62910606967233710022017-03-09T10:11:54.270-06:002017-03-09T10:11:54.270-06:00Raven, it's really simple: if they give in and...Raven, it's really simple: if they give in and bake the gay cake, they honestly believe they may end up in Hell. You can say that's silly, but you can't say that countless millions of human beings have done countless billions of acts that would make no sense whatever except for very strong and heartfelt ideas about an afterlife. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-37702069700240846802017-03-08T07:55:57.353-06:002017-03-08T07:55:57.353-06:00Yes. This. I'm a woman with mild anxiety issue...Yes. This. I'm a woman with mild anxiety issues and I'm less scared than a lot of local big, burly men with guns. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-44243701840968495212017-03-08T07:52:57.492-06:002017-03-08T07:52:57.492-06:00I've been thinking and thinking about this. Ye...I've been thinking and thinking about this. Yes you're right. No you're wrong. The fears you are asking me to put to rest aren't rational fears. My Christian friend who said he won't come to my currently-theoretical wedding says he's afraid in the future his church will be forced to marry gays. His fear is like the war on Christmas: Christmas never goes away but each year people get hostile over the fear. <br /><br />How can I stop that? I can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason into. I've talked to my friend. But I'm a gay woman so I doubt his church would consider me authoritative if I did ask to talk to some of them. This is the nearest the church has come to being persecuted, this "you're not tolerating my intolerance" bs. When people need and want to feel aggrieved what are we supposed to do?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-24290274704241859632017-03-07T20:46:24.611-06:002017-03-07T20:46:24.611-06:00The economy was improving well before the election...The economy was improving well before the election. If it continues Trump will get the credit. How do you beat that politically?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-75461713628727455162017-03-07T14:58:10.262-06:002017-03-07T14:58:10.262-06:00Ha! I am new here, and I made the mistake of read...Ha! I am new here, and I made the mistake of reading your reply before the comment. My reaction was "yow! Switch to the decaf Jim." Then I read the snark above and remembered why Andrew Sullivan never had an open comments section. I don't know how you do it Jim, but good for you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15103798673889491878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-77800293437898818332017-03-07T14:50:32.955-06:002017-03-07T14:50:32.955-06:00Took the words right out of my mouth. I refer to ...Took the words right out of my mouth. I refer to them as lower case "r" republicans for a reason.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15103798673889491878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-14223145980769395022017-03-07T14:47:36.534-06:002017-03-07T14:47:36.534-06:00My concern is that there are significantly more re...My concern is that there are significantly more republicans in those middle red counties, and that even if a democrat ran in those elections (many seats run unopposed), there would not be enough democratic voters in those areas to out-vote the republicans. I think many liberals have fled and continue to flee the red areas, creating a permanent shift in political demographics. That would be my only critique. Thanks Jim. Very mindful.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15103798673889491878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-78883500887668538002017-03-07T12:53:20.156-06:002017-03-07T12:53:20.156-06:00It's awesome that you have such a strong sense...It's awesome that you have such a strong sense of civic responsibility. There's a concept in public choice theory, which is the economic view of politics, that most individual voters are rationally disinterested. That is, the amount of effort that is required to become informed about public policy never yields a return on investment. If your influence in an election is equal to one vote, any amount of time spent voting and any number of hours spent making that vote count by becoming well-informed, can never be economically justified. <br /><br />If you are General Motors or even the United Automobile Workers, however, an electoral outcome can literally mean millions of dollars for your collective interest. Therefore it is not only imperative that you be completely informed about the choice but that you spend significant amounts of money to influence that decision by whatever means are available to you. So this is how the deck is stacked against us. I know it's hard not to fault those who don't show up, but it's also important to realize that their choice comes from a reasonable place.<br /><br />How do we as people who choose engagement out of civic responsibility or whatever reach out to those who might be like-minded but don't care enough to show up? I think we listen to them, find out what issues they really do care about. It's our responsibility to find out how to get the politically disengaged moderates and liberals involved with organizations that focus on those topics they care about. The DNC doesn't have to be all things to all people. We need to spend more time on our areas of alignment and less focusing on our differences. Erik Zapilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08285205637613825557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-37978775506566001842017-03-07T11:00:43.955-06:002017-03-07T11:00:43.955-06:00Not sure if the "what's your solution&quo...Not sure if the "what's your solution" is directed at my anonymous comment of 03.01.17.08:53, but if so...*My* solution would be similar to what anyone should do with an alcoholic in the house: get everyone into therapy, protect yourself, limit access to the kids, and move on. I'd also ban advertising and revisit the Fairness Doctrine. But, besides being partially unconstitutional, this won't work for obvious reasons. I read writers like you looking for more practicable ideas. Where you had me especially concerned was around "...won the battle, and lost the war." I know you're not homophobic, so I find it a strange section. It appeared to me for a moment that you were recommending people settle for segregation and wait for basic human rights (pretty sure I read that right)...that what they should have done was essentially deny their own personhood until the time was right (which is never with fundamentalists). Given the physical suffering this leads to, at that point it doesn't matter if you're trying to be empathetic to people's fears, you're compromising with hate. And I don't think anyone should ever feel guilty or apologetic for standing up for themselves. Or others. Sort of one of the best parts of the American ethos to me, the whole lifting up the downtrodden business. Anyway, I think your response comment clarified that meaning to recommending fighting fear via pursuit of community building vs. the frontal assault of the lawsuit. Which I can appreciate, though I have my doubts about the reception. I disagree that these people like themselves. Their religious teachings and current economic situation are such that I think a lot of them deeply dislike themselves and are prone to lashing out in naked insecurity. What they like is their "box," their comfort zone, because it keeps the insecurity (and introspection) at bay. Essentially what you're recommending is enlarging the comfort zone, correct?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-63165591558865669192017-03-06T18:55:51.523-06:002017-03-06T18:55:51.523-06:00I live in the Kansas City Metro area, on the Kansa...I live in the Kansas City Metro area, on the Kansas side (the red square surrounded by the blue squares on your map). Something-possibly the only thing-great that did come out of the election was recognizing the number of us who realized "hey - maybe I'm not the only progressive here...maybe we can do something with Kansas!" Around 10,000 people also attended the Women's March here. We have multiple Indivisible groups who are extremely active. We are looking for progressive candidates for local offices. We are learning how to be grass roots. So...it took this to get us to show up. I fully admit that although we have always followed politics to keep informed, I felt so outnumbered it didn't feel worth the fight to try to do anything. And yes, that’s how we ended up with Brownback, Kobach, and Pompeo. Well, NO MAS.<br /><br />To your points on fear...this to me is the hardest part to think about action on. My parents have been drinking the Fox poison for years. They were always conservative, but at this point they might have gone full alt-right. It is really hard to try to find common ground to build trust on when we simply aren't working from the same pool of facts. Even on things like climate change...which we SHOULD be afraid of...it's all a conspiracy. (It wasn’t always a conspiracy-we recycled, composted, turned off lights, etc. They weren’t Greenpeacers to be sure, but by God we stopped using aerosols when the science showed they were destroying the ozone layer. Like your essay “Everybody’s so Different, I Haven’t Changed” - they used to understand and accept scientific findings.) The other thing that has really changed (some of which might be attributable to aging) is they repeat things without injecting any original thoughts, that I know they heard on Fox et al, like the whole thread of “if California hadn’t voted DT would have won the popular vote.” It's just running through their brains and out their mouths without any critical filter. <br /><br />The authority of Fox will not be questioned. <br /><br />I feel like they are in a cult, and I don’t know how to counter the sheer volume of fears that cult is creating for them daily. It’s exhausting to think about. And these are people I know and love, not strangers out on the Internet.<br /><br />We can shame people with religion, but not facts. Shame does work. In the short term. But it’s not the long goal in my heart.<br /><br />I also understand that real change isn’t going to happen, we won’t ever reach common ground, if people don’t feel heard. And if my own fear means retreating from trying to have the conversation, nothing will change. And that’s not ok.<br /><br />But…with all that said, I just read the comment about finding a way for cake bakers and LGBT people to have full rights. Well, let’s substitute “water fountains” and “lunch counters” for “cake bakers.” <br /><br />To that I say HELL. NO. JIM. Personal/religious morals and civil rights should not be valued equivalently in our society. I don't think we can practice freedom of religion and share the same laws simultaneously. One is not going to get its way. If that's true, then I am on the side of civil law.<br /><br />What I do think you’re talking about is a hearts and minds battle here. And actually showing up for it.<br /><br />Looking forward to hearing more about your plan and thoughts. As always. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-41980286339685748372017-03-05T22:28:59.056-06:002017-03-05T22:28:59.056-06:00Kathleen, I think everything in your first two poi...Kathleen, I think everything in your first two points makes sense. Now let's talk a little about fear (as in the sea of fear in the title of the post). I am married to someone that is Jewish. And there was a very real fear in the Jewish community that should Mr. Sanders get elected that anything that went wrong would be blamed on Bernie in particular and Jewish people in general. So a LOT of the Jewish people I know, even if they were progressive enough to prefer him to Clinton, were hoping that he did not win. This is what fear does. Personally, I thought Bernie was far enough to the left, that if he won 1. His election would start an espresso tea party movement that would result in mass Republican gains over the next four years, 2. He'd obviously never get anything done because... Congress.<br /><br />Personally, I had always let the Democratic primary sort itself out and not participated. I'm a left leaning centrist with very specific liberal social views and libertarian financial views. So I was fine with either candidate winning the primary and then voting for "THEM", again, with the caveat of the fear concern over Bernie and the belief he was too far left for conservatives to not totally revolt if he was elected.<br /><br />Oh, and I'd really like citations to all of your claims in parts 3 and 4. From where I am sitting, Bernie, who is NOT a Democrat, hijacked the Democratic party to run a campaign, very much like Trump hijacked the Republican party to run a campaign. Then, when it became almost mathematically impossible for him to win the nomination (in, what, April, 2016?), he refused to concede and wholeheartedly throw his support to "HER!" So the Dems end up with a bunch of dissatisfied voters that are angry at HER when they shouldn't be, and think SHE stole the primary and thus a LOT of people that blame BERNIE for Trump being *45. And didn't Jim write a bunch about this already?<br /><br />Again, please post citations for all your claims in 3. and 4. and I'll happily apologize for my ignorance.<br /><br />Just because the Republicans keep running people further and further right doesn't means the Dems have to, or should.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14055986351823686457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-34502098185161371862017-03-05T20:27:33.452-06:002017-03-05T20:27:33.452-06:00Why Liberals scare them. How about Cecil the Lion....Why Liberals scare them. How about Cecil the Lion. Whatever happened to THAT guy?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14055986351823686457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-43032237305318693952017-03-05T19:49:36.915-06:002017-03-05T19:49:36.915-06:00"Liberals scare the shit out of them because ..."Liberals scare the shit out of them because liberals would rather put them out of business, destroy their livelihood, over a wedding cake."<br /><br />How exactly? Would baking a wedding cake for a gay couple lead to the loss of their other customers? If so, that is unsettling like the way selling a house to an African-American family would "destroy" neighborhood property values back when. Which at times it would, but do we allow racism as common practice then?Raven Onthillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634556869209594389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-56565369203861996192017-03-05T19:20:19.040-06:002017-03-05T19:20:19.040-06:00Also, the biggest fears we are dealing with are: (...Also, the biggest fears we are dealing with are: (1) a huge fear of the loss of masculinity (I think the elections of both Schwarzenegger and President Small Hands are signs of this) and (2) a fear of modernity, of the unified world we are arriving in. I have no idea at all how we deal with either of these.Raven Onthillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634556869209594389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8243351006478134285.post-65827536144496537502017-03-05T19:13:21.803-06:002017-03-05T19:13:21.803-06:00I've written an extended and rather grim medit...I've written an extended and rather grim meditation on this; people can read it <a href="http://adviceunasked.blogspot.com/2017/03/2018-2020-and-beyond.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. My general take on this, though, is that it's not show-up-ness we lack or failure to respond to fear, but rather ideals, leadership, and above all organization. There are yuge numbers of people out in the streets, if we can organize, we can win.Raven Onthillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634556869209594389noreply@blogger.com